The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by DD_crash

A bit O/T but how much of the invasion fleet would the RN have to sink before the invasion would be called off? I am sure that the RN would sacrifice a lot of ships to achieve that. Their role is to protect Britain and that would be their task.

Well, the role is to protect Britain while having the minimum amount of losses, cos once your might is no more, you failed.

Exposing all of your Navy in such a narrow area would have been quite a huge risk, besides, considering that the waters would have been an obstacle anyway, the only viable solution would have been to invade the territory with paratroopers and establish bridgeheads.
Considering that the first heavy transport glider (Me321 Gigant) was done at a record speed and available in early 1941, if they carried on with the battle for air dominance they might have as well ditched the plan of an invasion via sea for an airborne one: with a coordinated operation they could have delivered thousands of soldiers and even light tanks and medium tanks (Panzer IV) in a single day.

But again, this is speculation.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Well, the role is to protect Britain while having the minimum amount of losses, cos once your might is no more, you failed.

Exposing all of your Navy in such a narrow area would have been quite a huge risk, besides, considering that the waters would have been an obstacle anyway, the only viable solution would have been to invade the territory with paratroopers and establish bridgeheads.
Considering that the first heavy transport glider (Me321 Gigant) was done at a record speed and available in early 1941, if they carried on with the battle for air dominance they might have as well ditched the plan of an invasion via sea for an airborne one: with a coordinated operation they could have delivered thousands of soldiers and even light tanks and medium tanks (Panzer IV) in a single day.

But again, this is speculation.

I have often wondered about Milch's June 40 'Plan / Gamble'.
Massive local air superiority, glider / parachute operation to capture say Hawkinge and then throw the kitchen sink at keeping resupply / reinforcement open.

I think given the state of the British Army at that point it might just have worked.

Regards Mike

[csThor]

Just a short reply WRT naval forces:

1.) The forces near the invasion zone - which were light forces, destroyers and a handful of light cruisers - would be among the priority targets for the Luftwaffe if the necessary air superiority had been established. And that is before the "invasion fleet" raises anchors.
Besides there is more than one way to take warships out of the equation. Damage them, damage or destroy the infrastructure they rely on (piers, cranes, ammo and fuel depots) and they won't be more than a heap of metal. Had the Luftwaffe won air superiority the big harbors of Southern England would have seen very heavy attacks (i.e. Portsmouth or Southampton).

2.) The Royal Navy was stretched thin across the globe due to the necessities of the Empire, the italian navy in the Mediterranean Sea and the need to escort convois across the Atlantic. The Home Fleet was based at Scapa Flow and a number of cruiser and destroyer flotillas along the Eastern Coast. Getting them to the area of operations does take time, a group of heavy ships coming from Scapa will take up to a day to reach the combat zone. Which means there will be no heavy cruisers or battleships opposing the initial landings.

Additionally the Channel was a narrow theater, rather easily controlled with light forces, recon planes, submarines and - the real trump card the Kriegsmarine had - mines. Large ships are best suited for large sea areas. They need space to maneuver ... which was just not there in the Channel.

3.) Battleships and the likes are political weapons. Regardless of their firepower, their protection or their speed there was always a political element in their use. Wilhelm II left the High Seas Fleet in their harbors since he feared losses more. The Japanese left Musashi and Yamato at home until it was too late for them to make a useful contribution. I think the british government would think hard and long about employing its valuable battleships and battlecruisers in these narrow waters, where the risk of losing them is very high while the potential gains are at least questionable. These ships represent a nation's prestige in naval affairs, losing them for nothing would be a serious blow.

I'm not saying a potential invasion would have worked for sure. I am saying we're talking about very muddy waters here and it's simply impossible to tell what exactly could have happened and how that could have effected other decisions.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Not posting this to prove any kind of point, but found an interesting link here;

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/U...UK-RN-I-4.html

Couldn't find a similar link to a simple tally of Kriegsmarine strength.

Anyone post one please?

Cheers.

'By the 31st of August all ships of the Home Fleet, commanded by Admiral Sir Charles Forbes, had taken up or were proceeding to their war stations. The organisation and disposition of the fleet was as follows:

At Scapa Flow in the Orkneys:
2nd Battle Squadron Nelson, Rodney, Royal Oak, Royal Sovereign, Ramillies.
Battle Cruiser Squadron Hood and Repulse.
Aircraft Carrier Ark Royal.
18th Cruiser Squadron Aurora, Sheffield, Edinburgh, Belfast.
12th Cruiser Squadron Effingham, Emerald, Cardiff, Dunedin.
7th Cruiser Squadron Diomede, Dragon, Calypso, Caledon.
6th and 8th Destroyer Flotillas Seventeen destroyers.
1st Minesweeping Flotilla Seven fleet minesweepers.
At Rosyth:
Aircraft Carrier Furious
At Dundee:
2nd Submarine Flotilla Depot ship Forth and ten boats.
At Blyth:
6th Submarine Flotilla Depot ship Titania and six boats.


In addition to the foregoing ships and units under Admiral Forbes' command the following forces were stationed in home waters:-- In the Humber:
2nd Cruiser Squadron Southampton and Glasgow.
7th Destroyer Flotilla Nine destroyers.
At Portland:
Battleships Resolution and Revenge.
Aircraft Carriers Courageous and Hermes.
Cruisers Ceres, Caradoc, Cairo (A.A. cruiser.)
18th Destroyer Flotilla Nine destroyers.'

I make that about 90 ships/boats in total.

[Al Schlageter]

"The number and strength of our surface units is so small compared to the British fleet that they can only show how to die in honor - even when operating with full effort."
-- Großadmiral Erich Raeder, September 3, 1939

http://ww2total.com/WW2/History/Orde...ember-1939.htm

[Sternjaeger II]

yep, considering the losses sustained during the Norway campaign as well, the Kriegsmarine was in no state to face the Royal Navy, save for the u-boote, which could have still used with success in such a peculiar bit of sea, and being very close to their bases, they would have operated quick and effectively.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

yep, considering the losses sustained during the Norway campaign as well, the Kriegsmarine was in no state to face the Royal Navy, save for the u-boote, which could have still used with success in such a peculiar bit of sea, and being very close to their bases, they would have operated quick and effectively.

Yeah, it was the u-boat strength I was mainly looking for.

I was also thinking how fantastic it would be if one day using some sort of online computer sim, maybe even CoD, the invasion could actually be attempted virtually, complete with Naval forces etc.

What a cracking fantasy!

[DD_crash]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

I was also thinking how fantastic it would be if one day using some sort of online computer sim, maybe even CoD, the invasion could actually be attempted virtually, complete with Naval forces etc.

What a cracking fantasy!

I bet that the Luftwaffe wouldn't put the radar sites low on their priories this time

[Rattlehead]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

I was also thinking how fantastic it would be if one day using some sort of online computer sim, maybe even CoD, the invasion could actually be attempted virtually, complete with Naval forces etc.

What a cracking fantasy!

Would be nice, but even then, the objectivity of the coders who created the sim would be called into question by the losing side.
Someone, somewhere, is always going to raise objections, no matter what.

[ATAG_Dutch]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

In terms of capital ships, the Kreigsmarine was already practically out of action at the time of the BoB. It wouldn't be until early 1941 that enough ships were online to consider any time of aggressive action against the British, and that was Operation Rhineland.

Thanks, do you know the number of operational u-boats at this time also?

The only figure I can find is during the Norway campaign @ 30.