Suddenly Spit IIa on all the servers?

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by xnomad

Well I finally got shot down by a human flown Spit tonight for the first time. First of all a big thumbs up to the pilot as I met him at 3000 metres! He had a bit of an advantage to start as I had to climb and turn to get on him to ID him first.

I managed to keep him in front of my nose for a few turns back and forth by doing some high yo yos. I got some MG shots on him first from a distance and saw him streaming coolant. So I thought I had this Spit 2 under control. He then went into a dive and I climbed a bit to wait for him to come up again below me.

So I'm expecting him to zoom back up and slow down below me as I've been spiral climbing. Nah he zoomed up and not only that, he did a hard turn whilst climbing and got some shots that knocked out part of my engine and my radiators! Now he was co alt with me and still hauling. You can actually gain altitude by diving and zooming up again but this was very unexpected.

I then did a helpless power dive to get away but my craft was a bit of a mess, I did some bunts and reverses and managed to get an overshoot but he turned on a dime and was right back on my tail. Engine shot to pieces, canopy off and out for a swim in the channel.

It's official I'm scared of the Spit MKII that thing is mean! In the right hands it's an almost impossible match for the 109. Salute to the pilot too, it wasn't just the plane.

Sounds just like flying 190s back in IL2, down low it's full of better turning and better climbing planes, if you go a bit higher to BnZ them there are other faster planes higher up that BnZ you.

/me runs


On a serious note, i think the issue is not balance or historical accuracy on their own, because absolute balance is unrealistic and absolute accuracy is impossible. I think the issue is balance within the constraints of historical accuracy, but in the wider scheme of things, ie how the battles tend to play out:

A planeset with more or less equally undermodeled flyables results in a somewhat accurate portrayal of the way the engagements historically played out, because the "gaps" between the capabilities of each aircraft remain roughly the same. That's why 109s vs Hurris and Spit Is worked until now, they are all undermodeled to a certain extent.

A planeset with these same, equally undermodeled flyables and a single, properly modeled flyable does not play out like that, because there is now a huge gap between it and the other aircraft types.


The FM might be off, but if an ingame Hurri does 250mph and the 109 does 270, while a real Hurri did 300mph and the 109 did 320 (numbers are not accurate, i'm just illustrating a point here), it's still a 20mph performance gap in both cases and the way the fight plays out will be close to what historically tended to happen.

In other words, to have accurately evolving fights you don't necessarily need 100% accurate FMs, what you need is accuracy in performance differences between types. It's precisely this aspect which the Spit II messes up, because currently it's the only non-undermodeled fighter in the sim (or the least undermodeled): no single fighter during the BoB had a 100km/h airspeed advantage over its contemporaries.

[trumps]

I found the solution to the Spit !!a problem, gettem before they take off, or as they land, it's just like the germans an their Me 262's later on in the war, you have to get them at their most vunerable, if they want to use them then they will have to protect them Btw i normally don't vulch, not that i have a problem with it, but extraordinary FM's call for extraordinary tactics LOL!

Craig

[trumps]

Originally Posted by cheesehawk

Lol, all good, I just spawned that to see if there were spots that didn't start on a hill. Got in the cockpit and heard that beautiful DB601 whine coming and dammit if you didn't start firing! =)

sorry bout that LOL, did i PK you? i always try to get the pilot because he is the naughty boy who wants to fly the evil MkIIa spaceship the 601 does sound special when someone beats up the field with a 109 doesn't it

you did get a couple of hits on me as i made that headon pass, i was getting a bit cheeky!

Craig

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Madfish

I said it in my post or was trying to say: this only goes for dogfighting. Co-op and realism servers should stay the way they are, of course, they are imbalanced by design and people have to expect that. I'm saying should because it's also very naive. There could be cool applications. For example fighting in a captured plane. Yes, not the most realistic thing but still interesting for a co-op scenario.

But saying dogfighting servers are real or as close to realism as they can be is wrong in my opinion. I laid out enough arguments in my post above and no one has ever bothered with answering them.
What's so real about our dogfight servers? The conditions back in the days have been totally different. So we can't just quote this past and force it on the game now and say "this is real". It's not.

How you say arcade to such a server escapes me though. Just because I want the very same realistic planes being able to go up against each other? That changes nothing regarding the simulation fidelity I believe.

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant

[Madfish]

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz

~S~

Well having servers that fit in with what your saying as long as we still have our Co-Op FR mission based servers which im sure repka n ATAG will provide with more n more detail once things are easier to play with mission building wise and more importantly work..

As you say have your plane against plane server and indeed it would be a 'dog'fighting server...nothing more

Sry 'arcade' wasnt putting across what i meant

True - and also the way the new IL-2 CloD works now I believe is this: There is NO "mode" anymore. No dogfight, no co-op, no single player campaign or multiplayer campaign or dynamic campaign etc. It can all be done on the map based on scripting. Offline or online.

So essentially I'm wondering why there is this single limitation (or maybe I'm wrong and it could be done) left, not allowing to have all planes available for all sides.

If this limitation fell it'd open a lot of possibilities. Not only fair dogfights but also cool stuff like a mission where the goal is to raid an airport, land a "bomber" (5 people or so) and capture enemy fighters, tyring to bring them back home just to get attacked by a fighter wing that want's to prevent this.

So yeah, I think everyone would benefit. The people who always bicker about FM and "overpowered planes" could finally fight it out on fair grounds. The rest would have more options regarding co-op style missions. Win-Win situation I believe.

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Madfish

a mission where the goal is to raid an airport, land a "bomber" (5 people or so) and capture enemy fighters, tyring to bring them back home just to get attacked by a fighter wing that want's to prevent this.

So yeah, I think everyone would benefit.

Personally I dislike this scenario. Even if it is creative enough to say the least it might not fit the majority of players expectation.

C'mon this sim is all abt BoB. Tht's breathtaking enough !

But we might need proper historical scenarii with stream of bombers flying toward En and a bunch of brave men blasting their way toward them. Not very sophisticated but I give my word on that !