IL2 and Sound Modding

[Ratsack]

It's just a nonsensical and arrogant position. To assert that people who bought the sim have no valid opinion is arrogance of the worst sort. To assert that they have no valid opinion because they don't play in your particular sand pit is not just arrogant, it's ignorant.

I actually wish the sim had never been cracked. But that has nothing to do with the fact that I fly 50-75% of the time off line. As far as I can see, LeB is trying to discredit and discard the opinions of a section of the IL-2 using public. She at first tried to discount them on the grounds that they're not really a majority, and when that didn't fly she's tried to argue they have no 'stake' anyway.

It smacks of debating-team rationalisation. The guts of it is that LeB thinks off liners will generally hold opinions different to hers, so she attempts to discredit or minimize that opinion. It's rude, if nothing else.

cheers,
Ratsack

[ElAurens]

Wait a frickin minute here.

DerAlte is saying that the publisher should take legal action agianst someone who supports the developer's and publisher's position that decompling the sim (hacking) is theft of intellectual property because that person is hurting future sales?

This is the single most twisted piece of non-logic I have heard in my 54 years on this planet.

Honestly son, did you read you own post?

[Billfish]

Not at all and you can "misread" into what I say whatever you want, yet the point still stands........

"As far as taking a risk of having ones play disrupted, onliners are the only ones taking that risk"....

No one cares whether or not an offliner uses mods, or hacks their planes to X-wing fighters for that matter......Their sim, they're hurting no one, so what.......Yet it's all to easy for an offliner to say "roll out the mods mild to wild, no one gets cheated" as it does not affect them.

It does onliners only.....and it is that group which can have their play ruined by irresponsible modding generating unfair unable to be detected mods, and aiding those select few that WILL cheat......

So yes, as to modding affecting play for the negative, only onliners the "5%" you all pressed for have justification in stating applicable opinions on.

and if you don't understand that basic concept at this point, then I can't explain it further. Just how it is.

K2

[jasonbirder]

anyone claiming to NOT be an onliner instantly whether they realize it or not just devalued their opinions

you may have an opinion. Sadly however it doesn't count

you may have an opinion, yet to the online community it doesn't count

ONLY online players are affected, and therefor have a valid opinion

you have yourself, excluded yourself from having a valuable opinion

I await the valid 5% to discuss the issue

Pretty much says it all really doesn't it!
In essence I concede that I am in the minority, but am arrogant enough to believe that anyones opinion which differs from my own can be dismissed as unimportant...

[F19_Klunk]

Hmm I thought it was pretty clear and straight forward (in maybe an elaborate way) :

"If you are an offliner then why would your opinion about the effects of the mods to the ONLINE community have any major validity(?) - it does not affect your sim experience one bit!"

I can only agree and I can't find that statement arrogant in any way.

[jasonbirder]

Well in that case can we work under the assumption that as the Online community makes up a tiny minority of IL2 players and that their opinion is of no validity to Offline players...then this whole debate is over and done with.
Onliners opinions aren't valid to Offliners (A logical extension of your statement)
Offliners make up the majority of IL2 players (a point already proved and conceded)
Ipso Facto any Onliners opinions and comments are of little importance in a democratic sense...
So we can all embrace the sound mod as an unalloyed benefit and move on

[crazyivan1970]

I wonder when people stop chewing on what Oleg said back in 2002... those numbers dont hold water anymore. Internet spread out widely and so is online community. Nobody knows the real numbers, so stop bringing it up, really.

[Ratsack]

Originally Posted by crazyivan1970

I wonder when people stop chewing on what Oleg said back in 2002... those numbers dont hold water anymore. Internet spread out widely and so is online community. Nobody knows the real numbers, so stop bringing it up, really.

The point is the hysterical exuberance of the relative handful of the fraction of players who are onliners and get excited by the mod, one way or the other. Your imprecation to stop bringing it up might be more usefully directed at them.

I mean, when you've got Billfish making legitimist claims about who can and cannot have a worthwhile opinion, you know something in this world is getting silly.

cheers,
Ratsack

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

Well in that case can we work under the assumption that as the Online community makes up a tiny minority of IL2 players and that their opinion is of no validity to Offline players...then this whole debate is over and done with.
Onliners opinions aren't valid to Offliners (A logical extension of your statement)
Offliners make up the majority of IL2 players (a point already proved and conceded)
Ipso Facto any Onliners opinions and comments are of little importance in a democratic sense...
So we can all embrace the sound mod as an unalloyed benefit and move on

What tiny monority? You keep saying tiny minority.. it may be a minority.. but it isn't tiny... if you consider that at any given time there are usually at least 400-500 players on Hyperlobby alone... that is at any given time.... You guys keep on going with this tiny minority bit... and that is just not true.. a minority.. perhaps... but definitely not the tiny minority that you claim.

Originally Posted by Ratsack

The point is the hysterical exuberance of the relative handful of the fraction of players who are onliners and get excited by the mod, one way or the other. Your imprecation to stop bringing it up might be more usefully directed at them.

I mean, when you've got Billfish making legitimist claims about who can and cannot have a worthwhile opinion, you know something in this world is getting silly.

cheers,
Ratsack

Oh Hogwash.... talk about circular logic.... the reason K keeps bringing it up is that it is the online community that is most hurt by the whole affair and it is the modding communities responsibility to behave in an honorable way with these mods since if you don't use them you have no control over any aspect of them. The mod community is the one who keeps bringing this up by insisting that "the tiny online community" has had it's way all these years.. or that Oleg is catering to the "online minority" at the expense of the offline "majority" and that is one of the justifications for hacking the sim. Which is BS. It would all be fine and dandy IF as so many of the pro mod crowd insinuate, those who use the mods only did so offline, but that is not the case and we all know this, it is quite the contrary. So therefore that whole offline/online debate in terms of "Well I am aon offline flyer so why cant I do what I want and screw you.." is just selfish BS. Now again.... I know some of the guys who use the mods... and most of the guys I know would never cheat intentionally.. but the fact still remains that if Joe Blow and I are in a DF and he has mods and I am stock..... we are NOT ON A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD. If the mod community had put as much energy into trying to come up with a failsafe way to insure that those who want to fly in mod free servers can do so instead of defending and indefensible position and the anti mod community had been more focused on pushing for a solution rather than a round robin rehash of the problem... and if both sides had put the childish name calling and posturing to the side a month ago perhaps we would be farther along the road to a solution rather than digging a trench with our feet by rehashing the same stuff.

[Billfish]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

What tiny monority? You keep saying tiny minority.. it may be a minority.. but it isnt tiny... if you consider that at any given time there are usually at least 400-500 players on Hyperlobby alone... that is at any given time.... You guys keep on gouing with this tiny minority bit... and that is just not true.. a minority.. perhaps... but definitely not the tiny minority that you claim.

as he is trying to justify imposing his wishes on the only group modding affects in a negative fashion....Onliners....

That actually a more telling statement then he realizes. In that because he is an offliner, he does not care about hedging that mods produce nor the ultimate cheating that is generated through them. IOW, having no concern for the community, yet only his own wishes as he is unaffected....

So as stated before, an instantly negated opinion as he risks nothing. How the world works.

K2