Oleg Maddox's Room #1

[csThor]

Honestly I am not a friend of that suggestion, Kurfürst. IMO the preset loadouts are the best way - both from a historical and technical POV. I mean it's not like flying a Bf 109 G-6/R6 one day and have the techs reconfigure it into a G-6/U4 ten minutes before take-off. That wouldn't work in reality and so it shouldn't in game, either.
What should be done instead is giving more care to the selection of historically relevant loadouts - there simply shouldn't be loadouts which weren't used in combat (e.g. Mk108 gondolas on the 109s, Mk 103 gondolas on late 190s or 2 SC2000 on Ju 88 ). A broad range of loadouts is available for almost any plane. That should be sufficient.

[1.JaVA_Sharp]

Originally Posted by csThor

Honestly I am not a friend of that suggestion, Kurfürst. IMO the preset loadouts are the best way - both from a historical and technical POV. I mean it's not like flying a Bf 109 G-6/R6 one day and have the techs reconfigure it into a G-6/U4 ten minutes before take-off. That wouldn't work in reality and so it shouldn't in game, either.
What should be done instead is giving more care to the selection of historically relevant loadouts - there simply shouldn't be loadouts which weren't used in combat (e.g. Mk108 gondolas on the 109s, Mk 103 gondolas on late 190s or 2 SC2000 on Ju 88 ). A broad range of loadouts is available for almost any plane. That should be sufficient.

sounds like load out expansion over time. 1940 load outs in '40. '41 loads in 1941 along with those from the 40's and so on.

[Antoninus]

Originally Posted by csThor

Honestly I am not a friend of that suggestion, Kurfürst. IMO the preset loadouts are the best way - both from a historical and technical POV. I mean it's not like flying a Bf 109 G-6/R6 one day and have the techs reconfigure it into a G-6/U4 ten minutes before take-off. That wouldn't work in reality and so it shouldn't in game, either.
What should be done instead is giving more care to the selection of historically relevant loadouts - there simply shouldn't be loadouts which weren't used in combat (e.g. Mk108 gondolas on the 109s, Mk 103 gondolas on late 190s or 2 SC2000 on Ju 88 ). A broad range of loadouts is available for almost any plane. That should be sufficient.

Maybe a system with predefined loadouts as in Il-2 would still work well for BOB but not in the upcoming Korea sim and with some late fighter bombers/attack aircraft. In Il-2 the F4U-1D loadout list is already extremely long ( 46 entries) and still doesn't contain all possible, or even historical combinations. For example there is no option to have just napalm tanks and nothing else.

In Korea Corsairs could additionally carry light bombs instead of HVARs on the outer wing racks. However often not all stations would be used and planes did operate with just 4 HVARs or 5 100 ibs bombs and also asymmetrical loadouts were possible. Modeling this with the Il-2 static loadout system would result in much more than 100 possible combinations.

With the Il-2 engine it is apparently very difficult or time consuming to add new loadouts to planes. It's maybe more work to implement a flexible system as proposed by Kurfürst, but over the years it will save time and will allow us to exploit the full potential of all eventually modeled aircraft, within their historic limitations.

[LEXX]

Good call Kurfurst. If its that hard for the developer to pre-define combinations of weapons, let the customer/server do it.

Perhaps offer a few widely used weapon loadouts for the Newbies, maybe depending on difficulty settings.

Kurfurst::

A 109 has different model if it has a bomb, if it`s a clean fighter etc.

I think the planes under differing loadouts have the same basic model, but parts of the model like pylons are used in-game if a weapon requires it. Not sure. I think that's how it can work in the StrikeFighters.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by csThor

Honestly I am not a friend of that suggestion, Kurfürst. IMO the preset loadouts are the best way - both from a historical and technical POV. I mean it's not like flying a Bf 109 G-6/R6 one day and have the techs reconfigure it into a G-6/U4 ten minutes before take-off. That wouldn't work in reality and so it shouldn't in game, either.

It`s not really a question of pre-set/modular loadouts, and it could be very well done with modular layout. It`s only a matter of setting certain flags, and programming the engine to understand them. It`s not even more work to do, since it`s the same time wheter you set these flagseach and every time you add a new plane (ie. set attributes for a 109E with droptanks, then the 109F with droptaks, then the 109G with droptank - instead, it`s much easier to set attributes for droptank only once, since it`s the same on all aircraft and then just refer to this set of attributes later)

If certain equipment was historically permanent, then, during campaign, on the plane you have (as I believe SOW will keep track of the player`s aircraft log - engines, airframes will be worn out etc) it remains constant and cannot be added/selected; but for purposes of dogfight servers, they could be set to be freely choosen/removed any time by the player.

Here is how I imagine - there would be a seperate txt file (like current Il-2) describing the available loadouts; files describing aircraft FM woud refer to these files, and take them into account. Any combination that isn`t ruled out by incompatibility of loadouts (ie. you can`t have droptanks AND bombs on the fuselage rack at the same time!) can be selected with a selection box.

The advantage is that this work only needs to be done once - you describe, and later add new modules to it as development progresses, and it`s much easier to overview and debug for the developer as well; it also frees the developer to make each and every time all combinations of aircraft loadout. Ie. what is easier, having fixed preset loadouts, basically a 'new' aircraft model for every variation such as :


Bf 109G-6
Bf 109G-6 with droptank
Bf 109G-6 with 4 small bombs
Bf 109G-6 with 1 big bomb
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SC 250
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SD 250
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type PC 250
Bf 109G-6 with 1 cluster bomb
Bf 109G-6 with 1 droptank

Bf 109G-6 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with droptank and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 4 small bombs and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 1 big bomb and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb
Bf 109G-6 with 1 cluster bomb and tropical filter

Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and droptank
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 4 small bombs
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SC 250
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SD 250
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type PC 250
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 cluster bomb

Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and droptank and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 4 small bombs and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SC 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type SD 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 big bomb type PC 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with gondola cannons and 1 cluster bomb and tropical filter

Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and droptank
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 4 small bombs
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb, type SC 250
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb, type SD 250
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb, type PC 250
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 cluster bomb

Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and droptank and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 4 small bombs and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb type SC 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb type SD 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 big bomb type PC 250 and tropical filter
Bf 109G-6 with 21 cm rockets and 1 cluster bomb and tropical filter

etc. etc.

Then do the same thing for G-2, G-14 etc, oh and yes, you will have to adjust all of their FMs every time you tune the single base aircraft`s FM...

OR as selectable checkboxes, valid for

General
X tropical filter (or in case of a 109E/F, here could be an external armored windshield, too)

Centerline rack
- 4 SD 50 small bombs
- 4 SC 50
X one SC 250
- one SC 250
- PC 250
- One AB 250/1
- One AB 250/2
- One AB 250/3 etc.
- One 300 liter droptank

Underwing pylons
- 2x21cm rockets
- 2x20mm cannons in gondola

You can select exactly the same combinations, and more...

Which one is much easier for the developer in the long term, gives much more combinations to the player to choose from, and which one makes more sense..?

;;109EFGK_centerlinedroptank
text : An external 300 liter droptank used commonly on LW fighters during WW2
type : SPcamp_selectable; MPcamp_selectable; DFser_selectable; centerlinestore
date : 9_40
ammo :
belt_customizealbe :
weapon weight : 7.5;220;0.0;0.04
drag : 0.04; 0.005
jettisonalbe : YES
hp : 1; fueltank
incompatible : 109centerline_store
designation : addnothing

;;109G_U4_MK108
text : The MK 108 was begun to be used on the Bf 109G-6 from 1943 onwards; it was a permanent installation, meaning that only aircraft which have been built as such in the factory had them; such planes received the additional designation of /U4
type : SPcamp_fixed; MPcamp_selectonce; DFser_selectable; permanent_installation; motorkanone
date : 6_43
ammo : 65
belt_customizealbe : yes; MK108_viermot
weapon weight : 58;40;0.5;0
drag : 0.0
jettisonalbe : NO
hp : 10; gun
incompatible : none
designation : addfirst_'/U4'

;;109GK_gondolas
text : The 20mm gondolas were commonly used on the G and K series, and all aircraft were factory prepeared with wiring etc. to mount them; adding/removing the gondolas before mission to a plane was a matter of a couple minutes. Adding the gondolas did not change the aircraft`s designation - the, ie. G-6/R6 designation is wrongly used, such plane was still a G-6, carrying the Rüstsätz VI (ie. gondola field kit).
available : 109G-2; 109G-6; 109G-6late;109G-6/AS;109G-14; 109G-10; 109K-4
type : SPcamp_selectable; MPcamp_selectable; DFser_selectable; wingstore
date : 5_42
ammo : 135; 135
belt_customizealbe : yes; MG151_nonviermot
weapon weight : 135;80;0;0
drag : 0.0135
jettisonalbe : NO
location : 109FGK_winggondolamount1; 109FGK_winggondolamount2
hp : 10; gun
incompatible : 109G_R3_2x300liter_DT; 109GK_21cmrockets;
designation : addnothing


;;109F_gondolas
available : 109F-4
text : Some 109F-4`s had gondolas as well, however it was only available to aircraft prepeared in the factory for them; these aircraft were historically designated F-4/R1, so we have the same gondolas, but only for the F-4, and this time add designation, too!
type : SPcamp_selectable; MPcamp_selectable; DFser_selectable; wingstore
date : 1_42
ammo : 135; 135
belt_customizealbe : yes; MG151_nonviermot
weapon weight : 135;80;0;0
drag : 0.0135
jettisonalbe : NO
location : 109FGK_winggondolamount1; 109FGK_winggondolamount2
hp : 10; gun;
incompatible :
designation : addfirst_'/R1'

- name : this shows it`s the MK 108 engine cannon for the Bf 109G series for the programmers, mainly

- text : Here a short text for a 'floating help' can be entered to give information for the player when he puts the mouse pointer over the selected loadout)

- available : this loadout module can be selected on the following aircraft (can you imagine the list for a GP purpose bomb, say an SC 250, used by almost all aircraft, how much time this can save?)

- meaning you can`t remove or add it in the SP campaign, you can add it once to your aircraft in a hypothetical MP campaign to allow players to costumize their planes, but only once then it 'stucks' (ie. like the player would pick an G-6/U4 ship when replacement planes arrive from the factory),

- meaning it`s available for selection, where selection is allowed, from say, June 1943 etc.

- number of times weapons can be fired (counter), per gun

- flag if the weapons belt combination can be set by player; default belting, in this case, historical Luftwaffe belting used in the Western front against heavy bombers.

- Weight of the loadout it adds to the plane (58 kg); second number showing additional weight of ammo, which can decrease; third at which point of aircraft`s the Centre of gravity, front-back, left-right(this may be important for GM-1 system, rear tank of Mustang etc., where CoG was important)

- drag : the amount of drag that is added to the aircraft`s FM, until loadout is not jettisoned; second number, after loadout was jettisoned (ie. bombrack remains)

- jettisonable : yes or no; gondolas, fixed rocket rails cannot be, droptanks, bombs etc. can be jettisoned.

- predefined locations at which the SOW engine should add the external model

- Hit points the loadout possess before destroyed, 'gun' is type of aircraft part for special attributes (like inflammable or not, damagable by schrapnels etc.)

- incompatible : showing if you select this loadout, which others you can`t select before you remove it

I hope you see what system I`m thinking of. Really, it`s much better for everyone, developer and user alike.

[csThor]

The problem I have with this is that people will mix armament variations with bomb loadouts and vice versa - which in 99,9% of all cases would be ahistorical and technically impossible (real life, that is). Unless there's some "watchdog" keeping the user from glueing together what can't be glued together it's a suggestion that promotes dweebery, gaming-the-game-style behavior and erodes yet another layer of historical relevancy.

Sorry to say this but when I look at various boards (especially those of online servers) I usually see the big "BOOM-BOOM" loadouts (e.g. SC 2000 on Ju 88 ) while the historically relevant loadouts collect dust in the hangar because they don't offer enough instant destruction. I, first and foremost, am interested in flying "history-style" and this includes realistic loadouts. Most people simply don't know about them or do not care.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by csThor

The problem I have with this is that people will mix armament variations with bomb loadouts and vice versa - which in 99,9% of all cases would be ahistorical and technically impossible (real life, that is).

I don`t think you`ve read the above post of mine in which I describe how it would/should work in my understanding; if you`d have, you`d have noticed that there are settings which PROMOTE exactly the things you are asking for :

- that equipment has attribute to tell the ENGINE from what date a given loadout CAN be used from, ie. no more selection guns and bomb types that only become operational two years later...
- that equipment has attribute to tell the ENGINE with which other loadout CANNOT be used with/mixed.

Plus I believe you have an improper understanding of the working of these kits. These were meant to be modular in the first place, they could have been combined. Droptanks were combined with rockets, gondolas, bombs. HISTORICALLY. Some were common, others were not so common, but possible. '99,9% of all cases would be ahistorical and technically impossible' - sorry but you`re 'painting the devil on the wall' without too much basis I am afraid...

Especially in bombers there were a lot of combinations possible with bombload. It is simple a matter of programming to set certain bombloadouts incompatible with others, or that simply mix the best of the two systems - for example, you`d have pre-set bomb loadouts selectable like a trop filter, but you can still combine this with a tropical filter, a Kutonase, electric turrett etc.

Let`s be frank about it, Il-2`s original loadout GUI was NEVER meant to handle such insane amount of aircraft and loadouts... it was meant to be a sim for the Il-2 attack plane, for which the player could select a well defined number of loadouts... then Soviet fighters were added... then why not have opposing German fighters... why not have German bombers, too... why not Western Allied planes..

Currently we have only 2 British and 2 German fighters in BoB SOW, plus a couple of bombers. Yes, loadouts can be done in the old way, ie. presets and no ability to modularly fit only droptanks, only bombs, or rockets, or a combination of these... already that 3 is so many combinations that will make your scrolling-finger ache if you need to select these from pre-sets... not to mention programmer`s work, it will be many times the work for EACH aircraft. What if when we will have 50 aircraft? I tell you : it will consume so much work that de-bugging and FM-fine tuning will be much more difficult, since you will have to do it for each..

Originally Posted by csThor

Unless there's some "watchdog" keeping the user from glueing together what can't be glued together it's a suggestion that promotes dweebery, gaming-the-game-style behavior and erodes yet another layer of historical relevancy.

Basically, you want to limit every other player to what they can use and what they cannot; this should be a tool for server hosts, not an artifical limit imposed on most players by a small, hardcore minority (and yes, I like historical settings, too, but I don`t want to ruin the fun of those who just enjoy playing in other style).

It has nothing to do with method of selection the loadout, pre-set or modular; incompatibility between sets can be easily set, which would prevent impossible/ahistorical combinations. There are not too many of those, since aircraft were limited by takeoff weight and space/attachment points, and to some extent, Centre of Gravity. If the engine is well written, there should be problem with this - realistic physics take care of the rest - you can`t take off too much overloaded,

Originally Posted by csThor

Sorry to say this but when I look at various boards (especially those of online servers) I usually see the big "BOOM-BOOM" loadouts (e.g. SC 2000 on Ju 88 ) while the historically relevant loadouts collect dust in the hangar because they don't offer enough instant destruction. I, first and foremost, am interested in flying "history-style" and this includes realistic loadouts. Most people simply don't know about them or do not care.

Pray tell me what is soo realistic about the current loadouts. That I can`t have a historical droptank for the 109F, because that loadout wasn`t made? That I can fly a Ju 88 with the SC 2000 AND full fuel load? That I can fly bombers overloaded, since nothing stops me from having max bombload and max fuel load, even if in real life it was either full fuel or full bombs.

That I am limited to those pre-set loadouts the developers given to me, even if there were other combination historically used?

Having SC 2000 on a Ju 88 - again, it has nothing to do with the method of selection. The problem can be easily solved if the server`s owner gets ability to set the availability and quantity of choosable equipment.

2, People are using big bombs because they only have targets - tanks, buildings etc. - that require big bombs.

Sure, people are not using a more historical loadout for say, a Ju 88, which was many 50 kg small bombs carried internally, and/or a couple of 250 kgers externally. And why are you surprised with that, what exactly should they bomb with 50 kgers - which in real life were used against soft targets, primarly infantry, by far the most numerous target on RL battlefields...

Now how many infantry do you see in this game? Is there a detailed DM for trucks and such that would allow fragments from small fragmentation bombs leak the engine, fuel tank, tires of a truck..?

You can`t expect real life tactics to be mimiced if the game does not mimics real life targets. Most of the time, we have tanks, guns and such as target - even in real life, they used bigger bombs against these...

[csThor]

And you missed my "message" - what I was trying to say is that people will sling a SC500 under a Bf 109 G-6 (I am still not convinced the 109s ever used bombs greater than a SC250 BTW) and add two MG 151/20 gondolas under the wings for more firepower. That is the kind of combo I want to prevent because it is ahistorical and a serious overload for the aircraft. In real life it would be a serious overload and would certainly put quite a dent into the aircraft's performance - no sane pilot would dare to fly that crate.

Bottom line for me is - history (and not just tech trials at Rechlin - frontline availability and use count as much and even more!) must be the fundament for the technical details. In Il-2 there are a load of ahistorical and useless loadout selections (Mk 108 and Mk 103 gunpods) which were never issued to the front and therefore misplaced while others, historically relevant loadouts (can you say Pb-1 and Pb-2?) were omitted because of time and ressource issues of the developer. Right now I see the system in Il-2 as technically fine - just the loaudout details need a revision.

[robtek]

@csThor

but kurfürst did say that such combinations as you quoted would make an aircraft unflyable in the sim.
And he did also reason why there have to be non-historic loadout to handle a non-historic target-environment.
Where couldn´t you follow his reasoning?

[csThor]

To be honest I did not read anything that would indicate such limitations in Kurfürst's words. If I indeed missed this intent then I'm sorry.

But don't we all know that "people" wouldn't bother with reading documentation? They'd come here, or to some other board and whine and b*tch and moan about whatever comes to their mind if things didn't go according to "their way". Maybe I'm a cynic but I have stopped believing in the ability of people to understand what rules and regulations are for. I've read so many whines about planesets, loadout limitations or similar stuff that I no longer have any illusions about what a lot of people really seek in a combat flight simulator - instant gratification. And since I am some kind of "purist" I am rather weary of such mechanisms.