Post links to 'cheating using the soundmod' tracks here:

[jasonbirder]

I can't help but think we're all being diverted away from the real argument here if we only discuss the pro's and con's of the Sound Mod in terms of whether any form of online cheating occurs...

The bigger picture is that the vast majority of IL2 play is offline rather than online (Oleg is quoted as saying approximately 95% of players are Offline players...which would fit well with industry estimates for the typical Online/Offline ratio of gameplayers) and of the people that do play online...only a proportion of them will play on Hyperlobby - with the rest playing on their own dedicated or squadron servers or through peer to peer connections...
So even if there is any cheating it is not something which will affect the vast majority of IL2 players.


Besides cheating has always been possible in IL2 - its not a new subject for discussion...Prnt Sreen, disconnecting, lag manipulation have existed for a long time...as has gamesmanship such as flaps on a slider, trim abuse, altering the gamma on your monitor so you can see through the G blackout etc etc...so to imply that before the existance of the Sound Mod everything was great, following its release everything is appalling is a complete misrepresentation of the situation...I can quote from threads about Online cheating that were posted back in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 etc etc...

Besides...how prevelent is it really? Even if it is possible to manipulate the game on closed servers...is it really occuring with any regularity? For all the ping pong arguments in this thread...there are no examples of genuine online cheating refered to here...merely examples of people showing it is possible...I can only assume that rather than servers being full of 1000 KPH Cr42s with Rayguns that in actuality life is continuing exactly as it was before the release of the Sound Mod.

And even if it did occur, surely its the responsibility of the Server Admins and players populating a server to identify and ban any offenders...If you choose to fly in an environment that allows and encourages cheating (IE: an open access serverwhere you are flying with random, anonymous people...in a competitive, stat-driven, win at all costs environment) surely you should take responsibility for making it a fair and enjoyable environment to fly in...rather than throwing that responsibility back onto the wider IL2 community who have no interest or stake in it whatsoever.

So in summary...Cheating doesn't affect most people, its not a new thing anyway, it doesn't seem to occur that often and perhaps stopping it is the concern of the hyperlobby players and server admins rather than a concern for the bulk of the IL2 community who are neither interested nor affected!

[Lo0n]

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

I can't help but think we're all being diverted away from the real argument here if we only discuss the pro's and con's of the Sound Mod in terms of whether any form of online cheating occurs...

The bigger picture is that the vast majority of IL2 play is offline rather than online (Oleg is quoted as saying approximately 95% of players are Offline players...which would fit well with industry estimates for the typical Online/Offline ratio of gameplayers) and of the people that do play online...only a proportion of them will play on Hyperlobby - with the rest playing on their own dedicated or squadron servers or through peer to peer connections...
So even if there is any cheating it is not something which will affect the vast majority of IL2 players.


Besides cheating has always been possible in IL2 - its not a new subject for discussion...Prnt Sreen, disconnecting, lag manipulation have existed for a long time...as has gamesmanship such as flaps on a slider, trim abuse, altering the gamma on your monitor so you can see through the G blackout etc etc...so to imply that before the existance of the Sound Mod everything was great, following its release everything is appalling is a complete misrepresentation of the situation...I can quote from threads about Online cheating that were posted back in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 etc etc...

Besides...how prevelent is it really? Even if it is possible to manipulate the game on closed servers...is it really occuring with any regularity? For all the ping pong arguments in this thread...there are no examples of genuine online cheating refered to here...merely examples of people showing it is possible...I can only assume that rather than servers being full of 1000 KPH Cr42s with Rayguns that in actuality life is continuing exactly as it was before the release of the Sound Mod.

And even if it did occur, surely its the responsibility of the Server Admins and players populating a server to identify and ban any offenders...If you choose to fly in an environment that allows and encourages cheating (IE: an open access serverwhere you are flying with random, anonymous people...in a competitive, stat-driven, win at all costs environment) surely you should take responsibility for making it a fair and enjoyable environment to fly in...rather than throwing that responsibility back onto the wider IL2 community who have no interest or stake in it whatsoever.

So in summary...Cheating doesn't affect most people, its not a new thing anyway, it doesn't seem to occur that often and perhaps stopping it is the concern of the hyperlobby players and server admins rather than a concern for the bulk of the IL2 community who are neither interested nor affected!

get out! you're not allowed such reasoned discourse here!
lol
ahh jason, that is about the best summary going.

[Rama]

No, it's not a "reasoned" discourse. It's a discourse of someone trying to proove a point and obvioulsy not sharing onliner concerns.
In an other thread I allready showed that onliners are one important part of this sim and that a big amount of the toys you're playing with in this sim were made by onliners... without them, the sim would never have became what it is now... so you can't just ignore them.
Now there's no threat on "offliners" or "free modders". hacked tools to modify at will 4.08 are available, and this will not change.... so from now on, everybody will be able to mod 4.08 to the extend he wants... and it's not gonna change.... even after 4.09 will be available.
Now there's a real potential problem online.... you want some track to proove it... just do a google search and you'll find plenty. If you want to find you will...
Discussing about it is also not going to change anything. So far by playing Aiforce War? I didn't saw obvious use of these possibilities (as somme seen on dogfight servers), but there's no doubt it's gonna come, and becomes a real problem.
My only hope is 4.09, to restore onliners confidence and keep this game still strong online until SoW:BoB.... (and in this case "free modders" will be happy with 4.08, or even 4.09 without using appropriate "CRT=3".... and onliners will be happy... )
There's absolutly no need to debate and to flame... the only thing we can do is.... wait...

[Baron]

Originally Posted by Rama

No, it's not a "reasoned" discourse. It's a discourse of someone trying to proove a point and obvioulsy not sharing onliner concerns.
In an other thread I allready showed that onliners are one important part of this sim and that a big amount of the toys you're playing with in this sim were made by onliners... without them, the sim would never have became what it is now... so you can't just ignore them.
Now there's no threat on "offliners" or "free modders". hacked tools to modify at will 4.08 are available, and this will not change.... so from now on, everybody will be able to mod 4.08 to the extend he wants... and it's not gonna change.... even after 4.09 will be available.
Now there's a real potential problem online.... you want some track to proove it... just do a google search and you'll find plenty. If you want to find you will...
Discussing about it is also not going to change anything. So far by playing Aiforce War? I didn't saw obvious use of these possibilities (as somme seen on dogfight servers), but there's no doubt it's gonna come, and becomes a real problem.
My only hope is 4.09, to restore onliners confidence and keep this game still strong online until SoW:BoB.... (and in this case "free modders" will be happy with 4.08, or even 4.09 without using appropriate "CRT=3".... and onliners will be happy... )
There's absolutly no need to debate and to flame... the only thing we can do is.... wait...

But, if there are 10 000 people who only bought the sim for offline play since orginal IL2 it surly must mean that there are 10 000 offliners active right now...doesnt it?


Same with onliners, all the 700+ online at HL at any given day..is all the same 700+ in the intire world on any given day....surly?


And like u said.....onliners are only bagage, a group that has no effect on the game what so ever. Oleg would have been twice as successfull hadnt it been for online whiners.


And Zapatista, your waisting your breath, they agreed with u and "us" long ago, they are just making u pay for being right and are enjoying every minute of it.

I know we are right, u know it, they know it, who cares if they admitt we are? They wont admitt anything, unless hell freezes over.

[Rama]

Originally Posted by Baron

But, if there are 10 000 people who only bought the sim for offline play since orginal IL2 it surly must mean that there are 10 000 offliners active right now...doesnt it?

Absolutly not. I know a lot of casual offline simmers that bought the sim, played a bit, then garbaged it. Number of buyers isn't representative of offliners.
In fact, neither you or me do know the number of actual active offliners.... so please don't pretend they represent 95% of the players... you just don't know.

Same with onliners, all the 700+ online at HL at any given day..is all the same 700+ in the intire world on any given day....surly?

You can have a better way to count. Currently almost 25% to 30% of the players each night play AW (Airforce War). All AW players are registered, go on AW site and count.... you'll get around 1/4 (or less) of the number of online players.... except casual players of course.

And like u said.....onliners are only bagage, a group that has no effect on the game what so ever. Oleg would have been twice as successfull hadnt it been for online whiners.

I did say that?.... I said exactly the contrary... please don't distord my words.
Just ask yourself a question: how many planes, cockpits, maps, skins, tools, missions, campaign, online wars were made by onliners from the begining of the sim up to now?
Whitout this work, The sim would have been far to be as important as it is today. It would probably be unsupported today, and played only by a few nostalgics.... maybe with a small second life with a small modder community like CFS3 for example... but not more.

In any case, the debate is biased. Offliners and "free modders" have all what they want... why would they deny to the onliners some real protection in 4.09 (which is all they can hope) ? Give me any good bloody reason?

[Baron]

Originally Posted by Rama

Absolutly not. I know a lot of casual offline simmers that bought the sim, played a bit, then garbaged it. Number of buyers isn't representative of offliners.
In fact, neither you or me do know the number of actual active offliners.... so please don't pretend they represent 95% of the players... you just don't know.


You can have a better way to count. Currently almost 25% to 30% of the players each night play AW (Airforce War). All AW players are registered, go on AW site and count.... you'll get around 1/4 (or less) of the number of online players.... except casual players of course.


I did say that?.... I said exactly the contrary... please don't distord my words.
Just ask yourself a question: how many planes, cockpits, maps, skins, tools, missions, campaign, online wars were made by onliners from the begining of the sim up to now?
Whitout this work, The sim would have been far to be as important as it is today. It would probably be unsupported today, and played only by a few nostalgics.... maybe with a small second life with a small modder community like CFS3 for example... but not more.

In any case, the debate is biased. Offliners and "free modders" have all what they want... why would they deny to the onliners some real protection in 4.09 (which is all they can hope) ? Give me any good bloody reason?

Im sry Rama.

I was beeing sarcastic as i agree with everything u said.


Was just trying to show where thoose promodder arguments fail. Arguments that there are 95% more offliners than onliners, wich btw is pretty outdated figures by now. And the claim that onliners dont play any significant role in the grand sceme of things.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

get out! you're not allowed such reasoned discourse here!
lol
ahh jason, that is about the best summary going.

dont you get a bit embarrassed giving each other hand jobs in public ?

[Lo0n]

Originally Posted by zapatista

dont you get a bit embarrassed giving each other hand jobs in public ?

now this, this is a good one. can't answer the post, stoop to insults. you really are a fool zap. which is funny when you consistently insult others intelligence. i'm sensing a napoleon complex here, you know what that is short stuff?
jason's post is one of the non-hysterical posts, like beowulfs, in this thread. and he hasn't decided to just call you some kind of paranoid schizo for hte hell of it. i'd call that a reasonable post. maybe not one that you agree with but well, that's life.
comparing a game to disease control... that really is stretching the limits of credibility.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Lo0n

now this, this is a good one. can't answer the post, stoop to insults.

1) answered the post
2) responding to tag team of hack kiddies gratifying each other as if that adds weight to their arguments, even when what they said is completely nonsensical

Originally Posted by Lo0n

comparing a game to disease control... that really is stretching the limits of credibility.

you need to check the big word book again, its not a comparison, its an analogy

analogy
- noun (plural analogies) a comparison between one thing and another made for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
- the process of making such a comparison.
- a thing regarded as analogous to another; an analogue.

failed to understand the analogy perhaps ?

[zapatista]

you must be the runt of the hacker litter, because you consistently make the least sense

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

The bigger picture is that the vast majority of IL2 play is offline rather than online (Oleg is quoted as saying approximately 95% of players are Offline players...which would fit well with industry estimates for the typical Online/Offline ratio of gameplayers) and of the people that do play online..

so lets translate the jason-speak,....the point that you are making is that therefore online cheating should be allowed completely unrestricted, even promoted,, just because it doesnt matter to jason ?

not only is that absurd, but whatever little time oleg had to add the last few fixes to other import bugs in the 4.09 patch, it being the LAST chance to fix things, now wont occur as extensively because they have to plug the hack leak, thanks jason, great idea there !

the online multiplayer community has also been the most active in providing feedback, making requests, and influencing further developments in il2 since its inception. even if it is a part of total sales, rather than the complete market. and your quote is dated, it will nowadays be at least around 50%, with the increase in net access in the last years.

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

.only a proportion of them will play on Hyperlobby - with the rest playing on their own dedicated or squadron servers or through peer to peer connections...
So even if there is any cheating it is not something which will affect the vast majority of IL2 players.

you'r on a roll now. so because jason cant count on his fingers how important online fair play is on ALL coop and dogfight servers for the community at large, we therefore should be bothered with hacking the files. let me ask my 9 yo if he sees the flaw in that......

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

Besides cheating has always been possible in IL2 - its not a new subject for discussion...Prnt Sreen, disconnecting, lag manipulation have existed for a long time...as has gamesmanship such as flaps on a slider, trim abuse, altering the gamma on your monitor so you can see through the G blackout etc etc...so to imply that before the existance of the Sound Mod everything was great, following its release everything is appalling is a complete misrepresentation of the situation...I can quote from threads about Online cheating that were posted back in 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 etc etc...

thank the gods you dont have a job that matters in the real world. you'r basically saying that because influenza does exists and can affect people, that we therefore shouldn't do anything about malaria, cholera, pox, aids, ... etc. dont you see it is irrational aspect of the "logic" you are using ?

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

Besides...how prevelent is it really? Even if it is possible to manipulate the game on closed servers...is it really occuring with any regularity? For all the ping pong arguments in this thread...there are no examples of genuine online cheating refered to here...merely examples of people showing it is possible...I can only assume that rather than servers being full of 1000 KPH Cr42s with Rayguns that in actuality life is continuing exactly as it was before the release of the Sound Mod.

yes, lets take the argument to the absurd in order to try and make a point. your now saying that because there is not a shower of 1000 meteor's heading for the earth right now, that meteors dont matter. since you seem to live a sheltered life, maybe get out more on some of the better servers (yes, even those not on HL, presuming you can find them), and on voice comm's see what kind of observations the regulars have. most will have seen confirmations of cheating, and there has been a significant rise in reports since the sound hack started being spread into the wild.

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

And even if it did occur, surely its the responsibility of the Server Admins and players populating a server to identify and ban any offenders...If you choose to fly in an environment that allows and encourages cheating (IE: an open access serverwhere you are flying with random, anonymous people...in a competitive, stat-driven, win at all costs environment) surely you should take responsibility for making it a fair and enjoyable environment to fly in...rather than throwing that responsibility back onto the wider IL2 community who have no interest or stake in it whatsoever.

your lack of having some rational perspective on all of this is stunning ! you've now said that the existence of a widespread hack, its open promotion and widespread use actually doesnt matter at all, since people should only use servers you like, and that fairness and honesty in the whole online community isnt important. and emm, if people are really silly enough to play with other ww2 aviation enthousiasts from around the world, then really they should have some mother hen overseeing them 24/7 to make sure each user isnt cheating. i have a simpler solution, you go play werever you want with whatever you want, and the rest of us want a simple secure way to play online without cheating.

Originally Posted by jasonbirder

So in summary...Cheating doesn't affect most people, its not a new thing anyway, it doesn't seem to occur that often and perhaps stopping it is the concern of the hyperlobby players and server admins rather than a concern for the bulk of the IL2 community who are neither interested nor affected!

i think you need more ram and a new cpu, then reboot and ask yourself the same questions.