Germany did not lose the Battle of Britain

[Crumpp]

Unfortunately many gamers want to place the significance for England's victory on the simplistic concept of their favorite game shapes performance. That is simply not true as design contemporaries did not have the performance gaps required to play any significant in combat.

It is the same silly a notion as Americans claiming the P-51 or any other USAAF designs performance won the air war in Western Europe.

It is arguable that the Battle of Britain was lost long before the Second World War started.

By providing the proper economic and logistics basis for realizing these plans, the air staffs had also established the foundation for increasing Allied air superiority as the war progressed. This is not to say their prewar planning was without flaws. Indeed, at a tactical and operational level, the Luftwaffe enjoyed self-evident advantages. However, by getting the fundamentals right and being prepared to learn from painful early reverses, the Royal Air Force placed itself in a significantly stronger position than the Luftwaffe to fight the Battle of Britain.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_74582443/

In terms of aerial combat losses, Fighter Command took a mauling. In the air, the RAF pilots just did not have the training, tactics, or experience to deal with the Germans. Dowding recognized from the beginning though that all FC had to do was survive.

It did not have to maul the Germans in the air. The Germans lacked a logistical system that could replace their losses at the same pace as the RAF. Thus overtime, despite their training, tactical, and experience advantage as an organization the Luftwaffe fewer losses had a larger impact.

What makes this all the more surprising is that Fighter Command's operational losses were significantly higher than those suffered by the Luftwaffe's fighter force (Figure 4). This was equally true for the Battle of France as it was for the Battle of Britain. Thus, for 4 months, July-October 1940, Fighter Command lost more than 900 Hurricanes and Spitfires [37] compared to 600 Bf 109s recorded by the Luftwaffe quartermaster returns. [38]

Not only was FC superior in numbers of single seat fighters and pilots, they flew many more sorties. On average, they had more fighter airplanes in the air and outnumbered their German opponents at the tip of the spear.



None of the facts change the emotional and cultural views taught in English school history. "The Few" grossly outnumbered in their elegant Spitfires and flying circles around the invading evil Nazi's is an image that will forever inspire us.

[MaxGunz]

The BoB wasn't about fighter vs fighter. The RAF prime goal was to attack bombers. Bomber losses did count and they counted more than fighter losses.

Imagine if the LW only sent fighters over? LOL! Think maybe they should have done it that way?

As for a mauling, Sept 15th when the RAF was supposed to have been worn down they did just what to the massed attack that day?

For whatever reason, Hitler was forced to leave the back door open and that did seal the doom of the Third Reich. So who won?

[Crumpp]

The BoB wasn't about fighter vs fighter.

Sure it was. Fighters are the only aircraft capable of winning and holding air superiority. The mission of the Luftwaffe was to gain and hold that air superiority over the invasion area.

For brevity, the analysis focuses primarily on the single-seat fighters deployed by the respective air forces. It was in this arena that the Luftwaffe needed to prevail if it were to achieve air superiority over southern England and, in so doing, defeat the Royal Air Force.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...4/ai_74582443/

Bomber losses did count and they counted more than fighter losses.

Yes, I agree. The German logistical system was not prepared to handle a protracted campaign. They simply could not replace losses at the rate the RAF' system could thanks to some brilliant pre-war planning.

So even though the RAF on a tactical level suffered higher losses in air to air combat, on a strategic level, they bled the Luftwaffe dry.

Erwin Rommel: "Amateurs study tactics, professionals study logistics".

[Untamo]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Sure it was. Fighters are the only aircraft capable of winning and holding air superiority. The mission of the Luftwaffe was to gain and hold that air superiority over the invasion area.

Nooot entirely true. The German strategy was heavily bent on disabling the British airfields with bombers by cratering them and destroying planes on them. Which they did quite efficiently. So efficiently that the air defence of Southern England was on the brink of collapse...until some stray German bomber accidentally dropped its bombs in the London suburbs. Churchill ordered a retaliation for attacking civilian targets.

After the British retaliation strikes on German cities, angered Hitler ordered the bombers concentrate on Britain's cities, mainly London, which of course let the British repair the fields and continue operating them.

Biiig mistake. I seriously believe that there might have been a very different outcome to the battle if this hadn't happened... But that's just pure speculation

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by Untamo

Nooot entirely true. The German strategy was heavily bent on disabling the British airfields with bombers by cratering them and destroying planes on them. Which they did quite efficiently. So efficiently that the air defence of Southern England was on the brink of collapse...until some stray German bomber accidentally dropped its bombs in the London suburbs. Churchill ordered a retaliation for attacking civilian targets.

After the British retaliation strikes on German cities, angered Hitler ordered the bombers concentrate on Britain's cities, mainly London, which of course let the British repair the fields and continue operating them.

Biiig mistake. I seriously believe that there might have been a very different outcome to the battle if this hadn't happened... But that's just pure speculation

What you are saying is correct as far as the action taken by the Luftwaffe. That does not change the fact the LW mission was to gain air superiority over the invasion area.

DIRECTIVE NO. 17

FOR THE CONDUCT OF AIR AND NAVAL WARFARE AGAINST ENGLAND

For the purpose of creating conditions for the final defeat of Britain, I intend continuing air and naval warfare against the English motherland in a more severe form than hitherto. For this purpose I order as follows:

1. The Luftwaffe will employ all forces available to eliminate the British air force as soon as possible. In the initial stages, attacks will be directed primarily against the hostile air forces and their ground service organization and supply installations, and against air armament industries, including factories producing AAA equipment.

2. Once temporary or local air superiority is achieved, operations will continue against ports, particularly against installations for the storage of food, and against food storage installations farther inland. In view of intended future German operations, attacks against ports on the south coast of England will be restricted to a minimum.

3. Air operations against hostile naval and merchant ships will be considered a secondary mission during this phase unless particularly lucrative fleeting opportunities offer or unless such action will achieve increased effects in the operations prescribed under Item 2, above, or in the case of operations serving to train aircraft crews for the continued conduct of air warfare.

4. The intensified air offensive will be so conducted that adequately strong air forces can be made available whenever required to support naval operations against favorable fleeting targets. In addition, the Luftwaffe will remain prepared to render effective support for Operation Sea Lion.

5. Terrorization attacks as retaliatory measures will be carried out only on orders from me.

6. Intensified air warfare can commence at any time from 5 August on. The Luftwaffe will itself determine the deadline after completion of its preparations and in accordance with weather conditions.

s/ Adolf Hitler

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/ETO/...-German-A.html

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Ah.. I seem to have missed that post from Untamo ... so it seems to be at least a spread knowledge. Thanks.

Britain didn't loose because of only one strayed german bomber?
As a consequence you could say, it would have lost? Thats the interesting point.

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

Ah.. I seem to have missed that post from Untamo ... so it seems to be at least a spread knowledge. Thanks.

Britain didn't loose because of only one strayed german bomber?
As a consequence you could say, it would have lost? Thats the interesting point.

Funny, if you think it through in all it's consequences, this one german bomber maybe changed the outcome of the entire war.

[Crumpp]

I seriously believe that there might have been a very different outcome to the battle if this hadn't happened... But that's just pure speculation

As a consequence you could say, it would have lost?

Whose to say. In my opinion they would have lost.

I see Germany got lucky in the fact all of her opponents up until England were even more unprepared for war than she was.....

The Luftwaffe logistical system was just not up to the task of gaining air superiority over England.

Germany was taking losses at a much lower rate than the RAF but still the rate was more than Germany could sustain.

In fact the German logistical system was so poor that even before the Battle of Britain, German pilot losses were more than they could sustain. Germany had a shortage of training resources and pilots before the war even began.

I see the fundamental failure in the German logistical system is the fact the Geschwader's owned the airplanes. When an aircraft was damaged and required depot level maintenance, it stayed on the Geschwaders books and counted against it's strength until it was repaired. It simply left the fighting units without an airplane while the airplane was in maintenance.

The British system had a separate organization that was responsible for fixing anything but minor damage. If the airframe was going to be down for the next days operations, it was released from the Squadron's and that maintenance organization would issue out an operational replacement almost immediately.

This meant that while FC was taking much heavier losses than the LW, the FC Squadrons were almost always at higher organizational readiness and could keep more airplanes in the fight than the Germans.

[Igo kyu]

Originally Posted by EJGr.Ost_Caspar

Britain didn't loose because of only one strayed german bomber?

Let's say that winning was easier because of it.

As a consequence you could say, it would have lost? Thats the interesting point.

It doesn't necessarily follow. Most of the aircraft were off the fighter bases by the time the bombers came over, and there were bases further north they could get to if their own bases were incapable of receiving them.

It would IMHO have been at least another month for things to become impossible if the bases had been continually bombed (though they were becoming uncomfortable at the time Hitler switched), and even that is by no means a certainty. By a couple of months, the autumn weather would have been too rough for the crossing.

If there had been an attempted crossing the British Navy would have been there to fight it, even if that meant losing all their ships, which even with no RAF at all is not IMO that likely.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Now that is some pathetic sheet! Pure postwar-propaganda.
Sometimes I'm pretty glad, that I am living in the 'land that lost'.