Spit1a > SpitII

[Blackdog_kt]

The Spit II and Bf-110 are the only ones getting historical performance at the moment (even though the 110 is modeled with the weaker engine variant when many were fitted with the better BD601Ns, it gets more or less correct performance for the engines it uses) ,almost everything else is slower than it should.

That should easily answer you question, Spit Mk.II is probably the best all around performer in the sim for now, until the rest of the FMs are adjusted and we get Mk.I variants with constant speed props.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

The Spit II and Bf-110 are the only ones getting historical performance at the moment (even though the 110 is modeled with the weaker engine variant when many were fitted with the better BD601Ns, it gets more or less correct performance for the engines it uses) ,almost everything else is slower than it should.

That should easily answer you question, Spit Mk.II is probably the best all around performer in the sim for now, until the rest of the FMs are adjusted and we get Mk.I variants with constant speed props.

I understand that but how much difference in RL which obviously will/should be in game was the performance between Spit1a to the SpitII and also do we know how much in game the 109 is underpowered?

Guess I thought I'd get a quick responce without trolling through loads of threads. Doesn't matter that much, just interested for future reference

[BGs_Ricky]

Spit Ia feels a bit weird, setting prop-pitch to coarse rpms drop down to just under 2000, and I can't seem to get faster than 240mph in level flight at aboout 1000m height...

[JG53Frankyboy]

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz

I understand that but how much difference in RL which obviously will/should be in game was the performance between Spit1a to the SpitII ..................

http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spittest.html

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Ze-Jamz

I understand that but how much difference in RL which obviously will/should be in game was the performance between Spit1a to the SpitII and also do we know how much in game the is 109 underpowered?

In real life, there was no appreciable performance difference between the Spit I and II, as long as they had the same equipment, and same boost, fuel etc.

The airframes were very similiar, and the engine output was almost the same, the Spit II's Merlin had a marginally higher altitude performance, and a consequence, worse low altitude performance. But as I noted, the difference was completely insignificant - similiar differences were there between various Bf 109E variants with the old type and new type supercharger, for example. Both had pilot armor, armored windscreen and were (retro)fitted with CSP during the Battle. IMHO the only 'major' difference was the different starter system of the Mark II.

In the game the difference is due to that the Spit I variants appear to be modelled with 87 octane and lower engine outputs, while the Mark II with 100 octane and considerably higher engine outputs. Again in real life both types operated on both types of fuel, and then performance was similiar.

[Ze-Jamz]

Thanks for the replys fellas...

[Osprey]

I like this bit

Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough
June 1940
Spitfire IA K.9791 with Rotol constant speed propeller
Me 109E-3 Werk-Nr 1304
Comparitive trials between the Me 109E-3 and "Rotol" Spitfire IA

1. The trial commenced with the two aircraft taking off together, with the Spitfire slightly behind and using +6 1/4 lb boost and 3,000 rpm.

2. When fully airborne, the pilot of the Spitfire reduced his revolutions to 2,650 rpm and was then able to overtake and outclimb the Me 109. At 4,000 ft, the Spitfire pilot was 1,000 feet above the Me 109, from which position he was able to get on its tail, and remain there within effective range despite all efforts of the pilot of the Me 109 to shake him off.

3. The Spitfire then allowed the Me 109 to get on to his tail and attempted to shake him off this he found quite easy owing to the superior manoeuvrability of his aircraft, particularly in the looping plane and at low speeds between 100 and 140 mph. By executing a steep turn just above stalling speed, he ultimately got back into a position on the tail of the Me 109.

4. Another effective form of evasion with the Spitfire was found to be a steep, climbing spiral at 120 mph, using +6 1/4 boost and 2,650 rpm; in this manoeuvre, the Spitfire gained rapidly on the ME 109, eventually allowing the pilot to execute a half roll, on to the tail of his opponent.

5. Comparitive speed trials were then carried out, and the Spitfire proved to be considerably the faster of the two, both in acceleration and straight and level flight, without having to make use of the emergency +12 boost. During diving trials, the Spitfire pilot found that, by engageing fully coarse pitch and using -2lbs boost, his aircraft was superior to the Me 109.


About the Spit II numbers
Deliveries of Spitfire IIs began in June 1940. No. 611 fully converted to Spitfire IIs in August 1940, thus being the first squadron to become fully operational with the type. Nos. 266 and 74 followed in early September, with Nos. 19 and 66 switching during the latter half of the month. In October, it was 41 and 603 squadrons turn, bringing to 7 the number of squadrons to fully equip with this varient during the Battle of Britain.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Osprey

I like this bit

Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough
June 1940
Spitfire IA K.9791 with Rotol constant speed propeller
Me 109E-3 Werk-Nr 1304
Comparitive trials between the Me 109E-3 and "Rotol" Spitfire IA

1. The trial commenced with the two aircraft taking off together, with the Spitfire slightly behind and using +6 1/4 lb boost and 3,000 rpm.

2. When fully airborne, the pilot of the Spitfire reduced his revolutions to 2,650 rpm and was then able to overtake and outclimb the Me 109. At 4,000 ft, the Spitfire pilot was 1,000 feet above the Me 109, from which position he was able to get on its tail, and remain there within effective range despite all efforts of the pilot of the Me 109 to shake him off.

3. The Spitfire then allowed the Me 109 to get on to his tail and attempted to shake him off this he found quite easy owing to the superior manoeuvrability of his aircraft, particularly in the looping plane and at low speeds between 100 and 140 mph. By executing a steep turn just above stalling speed, he ultimately got back into a position on the tail of the Me 109.

4. Another effective form of evasion with the Spitfire was found to be a steep, climbing spiral at 120 mph, using +6 1/4 boost and 2,650 rpm; in this manoeuvre, the Spitfire gained rapidly on the ME 109, eventually allowing the pilot to execute a half roll, on to the tail of his opponent.

5. Comparitive speed trials were then carried out, and the Spitfire proved to be considerably the faster of the two, both in acceleration and straight and level flight, without having to make use of the emergency +12 boost. During diving trials, the Spitfire pilot found that, by engageing fully coarse pitch and using -2lbs boost, his aircraft was superior to the Me 109.

The devs may need to read that

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Osprey

I like this bit

Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough
June 1940
Spitfire IA K.9791 with Rotol constant speed propeller
Me 109E-3 Werk-Nr 1304
Comparitive trials between the Me 109E-3 and "Rotol" Spitfire IA

1. The trial commenced with the two aircraft taking off together, with the Spitfire slightly behind and using +6 1/4 lb boost and 3,000 rpm.

2. When fully airborne, the pilot of the Spitfire reduced his revolutions to 2,650 rpm and was then able to overtake and outclimb the Me 109. At 4,000 ft, the Spitfire pilot was 1,000 feet above the Me 109, from which position he was able to get on its tail, and remain there within effective range despite all efforts of the pilot of the Me 109 to shake him off.

3. The Spitfire then allowed the Me 109 to get on to his tail and attempted to shake him off this he found quite easy owing to the superior manoeuvrability of his aircraft, particularly in the looping plane and at low speeds between 100 and 140 mph. By executing a steep turn just above stalling speed, he ultimately got back into a position on the tail of the Me 109.

4. Another effective form of evasion with the Spitfire was found to be a steep, climbing spiral at 120 mph, using +6 1/4 boost and 2,650 rpm; in this manoeuvre, the Spitfire gained rapidly on the ME 109, eventually allowing the pilot to execute a half roll, on to the tail of his opponent.

5. Comparitive speed trials were then carried out, and the Spitfire proved to be considerably the faster of the two, both in acceleration and straight and level flight, without having to make use of the emergency +12 boost. During diving trials, the Spitfire pilot found that, by engageing fully coarse pitch and using -2lbs boost, his aircraft was superior to the Me 109.

Meanwhile on the other side of the Channel....



From : Kr.-Fernschr.Ob.d.L.,Führ.Stab Ia Nr.8092/40 g.K. (II)
(only to Lfl.3)

Subject : Comparison flight between Bf 109 E, Bf 110 C, Spitfire, Hurricane and Curtiss.



In the following the performance- and air combat comparison that has been performed
at the E-Stelle Rechlin between Bf 109 E and Bf 110 C and the captured enemy fighters
Spitfire, Hurricane and Curtiss shall be brought to acknowledgement. The results of
the comparison are to be announced immediately to all Jagd- and Zerstörer units under
command, to guarantee the appropriate air combat behavior in the engagements on the
basis of technical conditions.

The Bf 109 E type clearly outperforms all foreign planes:

Speed: the Spitfire is at 0 m by ca. 20 km/h, at 4 km by ca. 10 km/h, Hurricane and
Curtiss at 0 and 4 km altitude by ca. 60 km/h. A similar superiority of the Bf 109 E
exists in the climb performance as well. Climb times to 4 km:
Bf 109 E 4.4 min, Spitfire 5 min, Hurricane 5.6 min, Curtiss 5.2 min.

The plane Bf 110 C is speed-wise inferior to the Spitfire, superior to the Curtiss
and Hurricane. Regarding the climb performance is the Curtiss equal at ground level,
up to 4 km superior then inferior. Hurricane is inferior up to altitude 2 km, then
superior up to 6.5 km. Spitfire is equal at ground level, otherwise superior.

The best climb for Bf 109 E and Bf 110 C is achieved with shallow climb angle
and higher speeds than at the enemy fighters. It is wrong to climb away steep or climb
behind an enemy fighter with the same angle.

Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that
all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times.
An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance.

For this the following suggestions are given:

The Spitfire and partly the Hurricane have two-pitch propellers.
Climbing away with the Bf 109 and Bf 110 must be done with the best climbing speed or
even higher speeds of about 280 – 300 km/h. On aircraft with two-pitch propellers with
low blade angle the engine will experience a very high over-revolution, and on the other
hand with high blade angle high boost pressure – therefore in other words, performance loss.

On sudden push forward on stick to below, the carburetor of the enemy fighters cuts out
due to the negative acceleration. This [evasive] measure is also recommended.

The rolling ability of the enemy fighters at high speeds is worse than that of the Bf 109.
Quick changes of the trajectory along the vertical axis cause especially with the Spitfire
load changes around the cranial axis, coming from high longitudinal thrust momemtum, and
significantly disturb the aiming.

In summary, it can be said that all three enemy planes types are inferior to the German
planes regarding the flying qualities. Especially the Spitfire has bad rudder and elevator
stability on the target approach. In addition the wing-mounted weapons have the known
shooting-technique disadvantages.



Lfl.Kdo.3/Führ.Abt./Ia. op 1
Nr. 3951/40 g.Kdos.
signed, K o l l e r
F.d.R.

[Ze-Jamz]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

Meanwhile on the other side of the Channel....



From : Kr.-Fernschr.Ob.d.L.,Führ.Stab Ia Nr.8092/40 g.K. (II)
(only to Lfl.3)

Subject : Comparison flight between Bf 109 E, Bf 110 C, Spitfire, Hurricane and Curtiss.



In the following the performance- and air combat comparison that has been performed
at the E-Stelle Rechlin between Bf 109 E and Bf 110 C and the captured enemy fighters
Spitfire, Hurricane and Curtiss shall be brought to acknowledgement. The results of
the comparison are to be announced immediately to all Jagd- and Zerstörer units under
command, to guarantee the appropriate air combat behavior in the engagements on the
basis of technical conditions.

The Bf 109 E type clearly outperforms all foreign planes:

Speed: the Spitfire is at 0 m by ca. 20 km/h, at 4 km by ca. 10 km/h, Hurricane and
Curtiss at 0 and 4 km altitude by ca. 60 km/h. A similar superiority of the Bf 109 E
exists in the climb performance as well. Climb times to 4 km:
Bf 109 E 4.4 min, Spitfire 5 min, Hurricane 5.6 min, Curtiss 5.2 min.

The plane Bf 110 C is speed-wise inferior to the Spitfire, superior to the Curtiss
and Hurricane. Regarding the climb performance is the Curtiss equal at ground level,
up to 4 km superior then inferior. Hurricane is inferior up to altitude 2 km, then
superior up to 6.5 km. Spitfire is equal at ground level, otherwise superior.

The best climb for Bf 109 E and Bf 110 C is achieved with shallow climb angle
and higher speeds than at the enemy fighters. It is wrong to climb away steep or climb
behind an enemy fighter with the same angle.

Before turning fights with the Bf 109 E type, it must be noted in every case, that
all three foreign planes have significantly smaller turning circles and turning times.
An attack on the opponent as well as disengagement can only be accomplished on the basis of existing superiority in performance.

For this the following suggestions are given:

The Spitfire and partly the Hurricane have two-pitch propellers.
Climbing away with the Bf 109 and Bf 110 must be done with the best climbing speed or
even higher speeds of about 280 – 300 km/h. On aircraft with two-pitch propellers with
low blade angle the engine will experience a very high over-revolution, and on the other
hand with high blade angle high boost pressure – therefore in other words, performance loss.

On sudden push forward on stick to below, the carburetor of the enemy fighters cuts out
due to the negative acceleration. This [evasive] measure is also recommended.

The rolling ability of the enemy fighters at high speeds is worse than that of the Bf 109.
Quick changes of the trajectory along the vertical axis cause especially with the Spitfire
load changes around the cranial axis, coming from high longitudinal thrust momemtum, and
significantly disturb the aiming.

In summary, it can be said that all three enemy planes types are inferior to the German
planes regarding the flying qualities. Especially the Spitfire has bad rudder and elevator
stability on the target approach. In addition the wing-mounted weapons have the known
shooting-technique disadvantages.



Lfl.Kdo.3/Führ.Abt./Ia. op 1
Nr. 3951/40 g.Kdos.
signed, K o l l e r
F.d.R.

The Devs may need to look at this..Whos next?