What am I doing wrong with the spitfire ?

[Orpheus]

Originally Posted by mattag08

I don't see what the problem is. While Coarse pitch is supposed to be for cruising, I just run fine pitch all the time with the radiator opened about 50% and no issues whatsoever. If anything needs correcting its the mixture control, it's completely broken. Auto-mix doesn't work above 10k ft and auto-weak just causes the engine to cut regardless of flight parameters.

We're not talking about the engine cutting out. We're talking about the fact that the Spitfire given to the player in the campaign cannot catch up with large bombers, or in fact anything moving faster than a milk-float. I've literally had a level flight, full throttle top speed of 120kph on some occasions, with no damage whatsoever. After take off, the CEM does something to the airspeed, reducing it dramatically - you can even hear the engine wind down once you're in the air.

The problem - since this seems to need restating - is that without using CEM, which not all players are comfortable with, the SP campaign becomes unplayable once you move to a Spitfire. While I appreciate the response/advice, the simple fact is that I do not WANT to use CEM, and I shouldn't have to in order to get usable performance out of the Spitfire. This problem breaks the campaign (and use of the Spitfire in general) for non CEM users and needs to be addressed in the next patch.

Maybe this needs a new thread entirely, one focused on the broken campaign issue, rather than Spitfire flight mechanics. It might get the issue noticed and prevent the offering of 'solutions' that involve using CEM.

[Viper2000]

Originally Posted by Orpheus

The problem - since this seems to need restating - is that without using CEM, which not all players are comfortable with, the SP campaign becomes unplayable once you move to a Spitfire. While I appreciate the response/advice, the simple fact is that I do not WANT to use CEM, and I shouldn't have to in order to get usable performance out of the Spitfire. This problem breaks the campaign (and use of the Spitfire in general) for non CEM users and needs to be addressed in the next patch.

Maybe this needs a new thread entirely, one focused on the broken campaign issue, rather than Spitfire flight mechanics. It might get the issue noticed and prevent the offering of 'solutions' that involve using CEM.

I just tested this with CEM and overheating off in a Spitfire I. There is no bug.

You takeoff in fine pitch. After a short delay, Santa's little helper then puts the prop into coarse, and leaves it there for the rest of the sortie.

(In fact, if you land, the second you have weight on the wheels your little helper will even put the prop back into fine pitch for you so that you can takeoff again.)

The only difference between what I do with CEM on and what the helper does with CEM off is that if I end up getting slow then I might put the prop into fine pitch in flight. This is most helpful at low level due to the high air density; at operating altitudes above about 15000' you get quite a lot of revs in coarse anyway so the benefits are less and the risk of overspeeding is greater. I'd also put it into fine to help me slow down for landing, and to facilitate going around should it become necessary to reject the approach.

But I also might break my engine, so you pays your money and you takes your choice. You can't really have your cake and eat it with this stuff.

As far as performance goes, the aeroplane does what you'd expect it to do.

I was easily able to get to 260 mph IAS on the deck with full throttle but without the boost cutout. It takes a while, but that's the nature of the beast.

Climbing at 180 mph IAS I get about 2000 fpm.

Flat out at 17000' I get 270 mph IAS ~ 350 mph TAS.

At the end of the day, it's a Spitfire, not an F-22.

It's very pretty, but it isn't magic. If you don't fly it properly then it won't perform, irrespective of CEM. If I fly at the correct airspeeds then it performs well; If I don't then it doesn't.

Just be thankful that you can fly at 17000' without constant backfiring caused by a real bug.

BTW, in other news Spitfire IIa is a lot faster with CEM off because you're getting 3000 rpm the whole time; I can get about 295 mph IAS flat out at 17000', which is getting on for 380 mph TAS; rather faster than I would expect.

[Orpheus]

Viper - saw your post and went off to test it. You're right about it changing the propellor pitch - I see the RPM drop from 2900 on takeoff to around 2400 at about 1200 feet and stay there, and after that the Spitfire accelerates/climbs like an absolute pig. I'm getting climb rates of around 110 mph, not 170, though that is low level after takeoff.

It's the difference between the two that's most startling. I tested the same in a Hurricane at 2000 ft and was getting a climb speed of around 170, rpm again in the 2900 region. Is this really just a quirk of the aircraft, or am I just flying it like a pillock? I had no trouble at all in the Hurricane, I assume because it doesn't have the variable prop?

Thanks for taking the time to check for me anyway. I realise I've repeated the same circular argument that the op began with, although I guess I now have a clearer understanding of the way the engines operate.

[Viper2000]

Originally Posted by Orpheus

Viper - saw your post and went off to test it. You're right about it changing the propellor pitch - I see the RPM drop from 2900 on takeoff to around 2400 at about 1200 feet and stay there, and after that the Spitfire accelerates/climbs like an absolute pig. I'm getting climb rates of around 110 mph, not 170, though that is low level after takeoff.

Set full power.

Takeoff.

Clean up.

Then just stay in level flight until you're flying at 180-190 mph.

Now trim the aeroplane for constant IAS.

You should see a rate of climb just under 2000 fpm, which will improve as you get higher and the engine rpm increases.

If you're flying at 110 mph then you're doing it wrong; you've got loads of induced drag and performance will be terrible. Indeed, at full power if you pitch to 80 mph you'll find that it can't either climb or accelerate, because all the power is going into making turbulence.

The only time you should ever fly a Spitfire slower than about 170 mph IAS is for takeoff and landing.

[Orpheus]

Originally Posted by Viper2000

Set full power.

Takeoff.

Clean up.

Then just stay in level flight until you're flying at 180-190 mph.

Now trim the aeroplane for constant IAS.

You should see a rate of climb just under 2000 fpm, which will improve as you get higher and the engine rpm increases.

If you're flying at 110 mph then you're doing it wrong; you've got loads of induced drag and performance will be terrible. Indeed, at full power if you pitch to 80 mph you'll find that it can't either climb or accelerate, because all the power is going into making turbulence.

The only time you should ever fly a Spitfire slower than about 170 mph IAS is for takeoff and landing.

Heh, yeah - you're right. Was up surprisingly late last night flying the spit in the GB campaign. I'm very new to these games but I do see it now. Not sure what IAS stands for, I assume something AirSpeed (but then I have trouble trimming to level flight in any single engine it seems, I can keep the nose down with the elevator trim but never overcome the pull to the right with rudder trim). At higher altitudes it's a different beast entirely, much faster acceleration overall.

Appreciate you taking the time to talk me through it. I knew when I bought this game it was going to have a deep flight model... just didn't expect the two planes to be so different! Only thing that's confusing me now is that said campaign spitfire doesn't seem to have tracers... or indeed any visible indication of bullet strike on enemy aircraft (or water, for that matter) at even the closest range - though I still get the 'player damage 98%' at the end of the mission, so I am hitting! Free flight spits have the tracers and bullet strike is obvious even at long ranges, so maybe it's just a bug?

[jimbop]

Indicated Air Speed. There's a good explanation of IAS vs True Air Speed in the manual.

[robtek]

No, imho it is just a different ammo-loadout with no tracers as the experts used.
No need to advise your enemy that you are sitting in his six and did miss him with the first burst.

[Orpheus]

I see it now, had my sight range way out of whack. Thanks again guys

[Raven Morpheus]

Originally Posted by Viper2000

Set full power.

Takeoff.

Clean up.

Then just stay in level flight until you're flying at 180-190 mph.

Now trim the aeroplane for constant IAS.

You should see a rate of climb just under 2000 fpm, which will improve as you get higher and the engine rpm increases.

If you're flying at 110 mph then you're doing it wrong; you've got loads of induced drag and performance will be terrible. Indeed, at full power if you pitch to 80 mph you'll find that it can't either climb or accelerate, because all the power is going into making turbulence.

The only time you should ever fly a Spitfire slower than about 170 mph IAS is for takeoff and landing.

Apologies for bringing up an a month old thread but I am having this problem also.

In my case I take off as follows -

1. Start the engine.
2. Raise the throttle level whilst holding the brakes on.
3. I let go of the brakes to begin travelling down the runway.
4. I wait and let the tail come up then I pull back on the stick to get off the ground.

As others have said a short time after that when I am trying to climb the RPM drops and the Spit then refuses to climb and barely holds level, in fact if I let go of the joystick which I have to pull right back to maintain level flight, the plane pitches forward into a dive.

As noted it would seem the simple engine management does this as a change in the prop pitch. This I understand. But like others I don't wish to learn CEM as it's a whole other level of difficulty - and I am a complete novice and don't have the full realism on at all.

But I am slightly confused as to what to do about it if indeed this issue can be solved without resorting to using CEM.

Please could you explain in simple laymans terms how one does what you have described above in the game, as I said I am a complete noob and have no understanding of how to fly a plane, particularly what you mean by "Clean up" and how one trims the plane for a constant airspeed?

Also whilst on this subject does the game have a set ceiling for certain planes? I flew the Hurricane in some missions in the campaign against BF-109s and they were able to climb to a higher level than I could, the Hurricane would get to a certain height and then simply refuse to climb any further - is this a similar problem to the one experienced in the Spitfire?

Thank you.

[RE77ACTION]

Originally Posted by Raven Morpheus

Please could you explain in simple laymans terms how one does what you have described above in the game, as I said I am a complete noob and have no understanding of how to fly a plane, particularly what you mean by "Clean up" and how one trims the plane for a constant airspeed?

With "clean up" I think he meant pulling up landing gear and landing flaps when used at the start. These two will induce great drag.

Personally I would advice everybody to use and learn CEM after you are able to start, fly and land a plane. It's not that difficult to get the basics and it ads enormous to the overall experience and your/the planes performance. Pitch control is almost as essential as throttle control. This counts even more for the bombers and heavy fighters (think of modern road trucks with 16 gears).