.303's

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by Talon89

It is frustrating shooting 25% until the guns are winchester and still not scoring kills.

I have no idea whether or not that is historically accurate. If it is, it should be left the way it is.

They are.

Brits tested the .303 on old Blens , and a good percentage of the bullets just bounced off the Al skin.

Quite a few LW bombers barely made it back to France with over 200 hits on them.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Flying Pencil

Quite a few LW bombers barely made it back to France with over 200 hits on them.

IIRC the record holder was a bomber with 1000+ .303 holes in it, and there are stories of whole Squadrons expanding all their ammunition on a single Dornier or Heinkel.

It really matters where you hit them. From what I've seen, creating fires are the surest way (PK is another, but it more difficult to pull unless using a head-on). RCMGs have no real ability to damage the structure, especially if hits are all over the place.. and the gunner and crew positions on BoB era German bombers were fairly well armored, and they had self sealing tanks. Their defensive firepower were not so great, but if 2-3 Heinkels shooting at you at the same time, it can get messy quickly with a lucky hit. Slugging it out with one is also a bad idea IMHO - the Heinkels are like flying tanks, the Ju 88 otoh was very manouverable. The Do 17 is the easiest to be shot down IMHO, as it has neither the robustusness of the Heinkell nor the nimbleness of the 88, but the radial engines seem to be very resistant.

British bombers are on the other side of the scale - they are vulnerable but have relatively good firepower. Still, Blenheims are essentially flying targets. The tail gunner on the Wellington is a problem, but is rather easy to be silenced with the center mounted MGs on Germans fighters; thankfully those are generously provided with ammunition. And it catches fire very easily. I am not sure if it's flyable, think not, but it would be great to have a equivalent of the 111!

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

The Do 17 is the easiest to be shot down IMHO, as it has neither the robustusness of the Heinkell nor the nimbleness of the 88, but the radial engines seem to be very resistant.

Myth.

Statistically, The Ju-88 suffered significantly more losses in BoB then He-111 or Do-17z.
Do-17z's where also used in low level bombing raids, including the very famous one on, pardon if I name the wrong field, but Kently.
IIRC, of those that attacked, 1 crashed, 1 force landed in UK, the rest made it to France, only just, all where badly damaged.

The Do-17 was smaller then the other two, had a one piece space frame wing making it more durable then the joined wings of the 111 and 88.
As you mentioned, the radial engines where less prone to stoppage due to damage, as the B-17's and Grumman aircraft years later proved as they kept coming back home.

17's did have Self-sealing fuel tanks (while Blen and Wimpey did not, resulting in many losses). Armor was added later (non of the German bombers had armor at start, field additions).

The 17's could and did carry 20mm cannons, with the bomb sight (The 88 could carry 20mm, or bomb sight, BUT NOT BOTH).

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by Flying Pencil

They are.

Brits tested the .303 on old Blens , and a good percentage of the bullets just bounced off the Al skin.

Quite a few LW bombers barely made it back to France with over 200 hits on them.

Not accurate.

The tests revealed MANY of the bullets did not penetrate the FRAME of the bomber, but it was dependent on the angle they struck. The bullets were generally effective in doing damage to engines, fuel tanks and personel who were not protected by armour.

Most of the problems with the .303's effectiveness was a function of the convergence which the RAF recommended initially, which was far to distant, and resulted in scattered results. Once pilots reduced their convergence down to 200 yards, the results were much better.

Versus the lighter frames of the 109's and Stukas, pilots found the .303's could actually saw off wings and fuselages.

[MB_Avro_UK]

In my view, the 303s are far better than in il2. But which sim is the most accurate?

[b101uk]

If you are unfamiliar with .303, they are on par with a .308 win/7.62x51mm NATO in bullet weight, velocity and energy wise, or if you not old enough to have used the above in significant quantity they fire a bullet ~2.8 times the weigh with ~2 times the energy than a more modern lighter 5.56x45mm NATO