Bf-110 is THE fighter

[David Hayward]

When used as a high altitude escort, not being tied to close escort to the bomber force, it made effective diving attacks on RAF fighters using surprise, high speed and it’s heavy nose armament to score victories.

Indeed, when given every possible advantage, including an escort of 109s, I'm sure the 110 could be quite effective.

[Blue 5]

The fact is that on several occasions the Bf 110 units performed better than the Bf 109 units on a particular day. When deployed tactically correct using the advantages the Bf 110 offered the Bf 110 was still a lethal weapon in air-to-air fighting which I believe Christer Bergström is able to show.
When used as a high altitude escort, not being tied to close escort to the bomber force, it made effective diving attacks on RAF fighters using surprise, high speed and it’s heavy nose armament to score victories.
Long range and an extra pair of eyes was also helpful in air battle, the range enabling to wait for the right moment to strike and the extra pair of eyes increasing the situational awareness of the pilot in an air battle.

That's a perfectly reasonable argument, the problem is that Kurfust seems to take x occurred with y frequency and turn it in to an indication of why x was the norm. Clearly, by all kill claim and loss data on both sides, the 110s had more bad days that good. Does not make it a bad aircraft, just mis-employed.

[Jatta Raso]

for all i know the 110 was faster than British fighters at top speed, but with low acceleration, and if caught up it had to stay and fight; under those conditions it was quite doomed as it bleeds energy fast during turning maneuvers, and had a wider turning radius than both Hurricanes and Spits. not much they could do with low speed except forming defensive circles or dropping all sorts of ordnance and hit the deck to make a run for it (against experient opponents that is).

true enough, soon they had to be escorted by 109s. i don't think they faced their best campaign scenario so they could show their best abilities though

[123-Wulf-123]

The 110 in Il2 was a beast when flown with correct tactics and preferably in schwarm formations online, I was part of Oktoberfest's Circus on Warclouds and we were so effective at WHACKING Spitfairies and MyLittle Ponies , that the WC crowd changed the rules to knobble 110s flying together as teams.

I have no doubt it will be just as effective flown correctly in CoD, and in fact I am enjoying flying against squads of Spitfairies and Hurris, Ansons, Walrus etc and shooting them out of the sky

Poor Buzz...sorry to burst your little bubble

[julian265]

Originally Posted by 123-Wulf-123

... the WC crowd changed the rules to knobble 110s flying together as teams.

What rules were changed to do that?

[123-Wulf-123]

The rule that didn't allow us to fly it.

Because we were rolling up the missions in no time flat.

And the bloody Spitfairies whined because we kept blasting them out of the sky becuase the clownasses kept attacking 110s and flying in front of them........

The rule that when they brought it in meant many WC veterans left WC..... THAT RULE.

Ask Oktoberfest.

[Oktoberfest]

Originally Posted by 123-Wulf-123

The rule that didn't allow us to fly it.

Because we were rolling up the missions in no time flat.

And the bloody Spitfairies whined because we kept blasting them out of the sky becuase the clownasses kept attacking 110s and flying in front of them........

The rule that when they brought it in meant many WC veterans left WC..... THAT RULE.

Ask Oktoberfest.

Yeah, we wiped so many asses with our 1942 Bf110G2 vs P51, Late Spit IX, Tempests and P47s....

And we managed to strike the ground targets as well.

Well, when you have the good team tactics and get a crowd of 6 to 10 Bf110 flying together and working with brain... It can result to pretty unexpected result.

Training and team tactics will always do better in results than superior aircraft capacities with no discipline and no tactics.

That's how we managed, for example, in a fight with 6 110 vs 6 late war single engine fighters (2x51, 3xspits and 1xtempest) to get a 6 to 0 kill at 5000 meters. And this was not an exception.

This part is good memories.

And indeed, WC mods changed their rules for a few reasons:

- First, the map designed to last 3 hours lasted 20 to 35 minutes because we destroyed all of their targets pretty much quicker that they expected. This leaded the red team to two types of frustration.

-Second reason is frustration number 1 : all the P47, P51 and Spit IX pilots that wanted to use their absolute altitude advantage were pissed off. They spent 25 minutes to climb and cruise at 10 000 + meters (where they know that they are out of reach of any axis plane), but nobody was coming to fight against them anymore, because we gathered all the possible escort around the 110 group to get cover while attacking the ground targets, which of course,are below 10 k.
Those (astronauts) pilots couldn't figure out why they were losing and started whining like mad to the WC moderators about us. They didn't want to change their tactics to protect their targets (which would have meant to take a risk) and wanted the rules to adapt the opposition to their style of gameplay instead of adapting to the gameplay of the server.

-Third reason is the second frustration : some of the red team pilots (roughly the half that didn't play "fly me to the moon") tried to protect their targets. However, heavily outnumbered by the axis team because of the adopted tactics (fly in a pack with 5 to 10 FWs and 109s to cover the 5 to 10 attacking 110s), they just got wiped out one after the other, unable to carry on their CAP missions. They too started to complain (I don't say to whine, they actually tried to do their missions) because the game became too difficult for them.

-Fourth reason : The inadequation between clichés and reality. Most of the online pilots have read in all books and seen in all movies how the 110 was a sitting duck starting from mid - 1940 (BoB era). So as soon as they see a 110, they jump on it thinking "Hey, that's 200 easy points!"

However, given the 110 defensive and offensive tactics we developped AND the always present escort, they always got shot down, most of the times by 110s, and without doing much damage.
This couldn't suit their perception of reality, so they started to say that the 110 was an unfair advantage in the Blue team because it was comparable, in performance, to the P38 L Late... And at the end, the moderators adopted this Point of View.

That's how everything was made to give more and more disadvantages to the 110 squadron, eventually leading the team to disband through frustration and a big feeling of injustice (that's how we were rewarded for using an outdated 1942 design against late 44 allied planes?)
A certain number of vets of Warclouds left the server. Diplomacy was not used well at all at that time either, which didn't help to keep the heads cool.

But honestly, so much bullshit was written to justify this decision that I lost pretty much the will to continue to manage a 110 squadron.

I fly it still a bit and manage to do things well from time to time (2 month ago, using BnZ only, I managed a 26 to 1 k/d ratio, just for info). Red pilots can also be surprised to see a 110 above 9 k... And remember that IL2 version of the 110 is undermodelled, be it in speed and max reachable altitude !

110 was a very good plane in 1940. It was flown by the best pilots of the Luftwaffe as Göring wanted it to be elite units. That's because they were heavily misused in the BoB that they suffered so many losses and didn't do as well as they did over Poland, France, and the Soviet Union....

I think that the 110 will be the absolute terror in CloDo because all axis pilots that adopted BnZ tactics in IL2 will transpose those tactics to CloDo while using the 110.

[Kurfürst]

Good post Oktoberfest. Should I say... sadly typical human behaviour?

[123-Wulf-123]

Originally Posted by Oktoberfest

Yeah, we wiped so many asses with our 1942 Bf110G2 vs P51, Late Spit IX, Tempests and P47s....

And we managed to strike the ground targets as well.

Well, when you have the good team tactics and get a crowd of 6 to 10 Bf110 flying together and working with brain... It can result to pretty unexpected result.

Training and team tactics will always do better in results than superior aircraft capacities with no discipline and no tactics.

That's how we managed, for example, in a fight with 6 110 vs 6 late war single engine fighters (2x51, 3xspits and 1xtempest) to get a 6 to 0 kill at 5000 meters. And this was not an exception.

This part is good memories.

And indeed, WC mods changed their rules for a few reasons:

- First, the map designed to last 3 hours lasted 20 to 35 minutes because we destroyed all of their targets pretty much quicker that they expected. This leaded the red team to two types of frustration.

-Second reason is frustration number 1 : all the P47, P51 and Spit IX pilots that wanted to use their absolute altitude advantage were pissed off. They spent 25 minutes to climb and cruise at 10 000 + meters (where they know that they are out of reach of any axis plane), but nobody was coming to fight against them anymore, because we gathered all the possible escort around the 110 group to get cover while attacking the ground targets, which of course,are below 10 k.
Those (astronauts) pilots couldn't figure out why they were losing and started whining like mad to the WC moderators about us. They didn't want to change their tactics to protect their targets (which would have meant to take a risk) and wanted the rules to adapt the opposition to their style of gameplay instead of adapting to the gameplay of the server.

-Third reason is the second frustration : some of the red team pilots (roughly the half that didn't play "fly me to the moon") tried to protect their targets. However, heavily outnumbered by the axis team because of the adopted tactics (fly in a pack with 5 to 10 FWs and 109s to cover the 5 to 10 attacking 110s), they just got wiped out one after the other, unable to carry on their CAP missions. They too started to complain (I don't say to whine, they actually tried to do their missions) because the game became too difficult for them.

-Fourth reason : The inadequation between clichés and reality. Most of the online pilots have read in all books and seen in all movies how the 110 was a sitting duck starting from mid - 1940 (BoB era). So as soon as they see a 110, they jump on it thinking "Hey, that's 200 easy points!"

However, given the 110 defensive and offensive tactics we developped AND the always present escort, they always got shot down, most of the times by 110s, and without doing much damage.
This couldn't suit their perception of reality, so they started to say that the 110 was an unfair advantage in the Blue team because it was comparable, in performance, to the P38 L Late... And at the end, the moderators adopted this Point of View.

That's how everything was made to give more and more disadvantages to the 110 squadron, eventually leading the team to disband through frustration and a big feeling of injustice (that's how we were rewarded for using an outdated 1942 design against late 44 allied planes?)
A certain number of vets of Warclouds left the server. Diplomacy was not used well at all at that time either, which didn't help to keep the heads cool.

But honestly, so much bullshit was written to justify this decision that I lost pretty much the will to continue to manage a 110 squadron.

I fly it still a bit and manage to do things well from time to time (2 month ago, using BnZ only, I managed a 26 to 1 k/d ratio, just for info). Red pilots can also be surprised to see a 110 above 9 k... And remember that IL2 version of the 110 is undermodelled, be it in speed and max reachable altitude !

110 was a very good plane in 1940. It was flown by the best pilots of the Luftwaffe as Göring wanted it to be elite units. That's because they were heavily misused in the BoB that they suffered so many losses and didn't do as well as they did over Poland, France, and the Soviet Union....

I think that the 110 will be the absolute terror in CloDo because all axis pilots that adopted BnZ tactics in IL2 will transpose those tactics to CloDo while using the 110.

Excellent and correct