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IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover Latest instalment in the acclaimed IL-2 Sturmovik series from award-winning developer Maddox Games.

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Old 04-07-2011, 07:52 PM
csThor csThor is offline
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Actually the question of a german invasion is not simple in any of the details involved. Of course everything we say here benefits from hindsight and knowledge of historical facts none of the people involved could have had at that time.

Please excuse the lengthy blabber. It's just a number of points I'd like to raise ... Under no circumstances I claim to have the holy grail nor do I claim to claim to have a complete picture. I'm just an amateur as well.

1.) In an environment where the operations of No 11 and to some degree No 10 Group were considerably hampered or if the RAF infrastructure in the Southeast was becoming unusable then the RAF's ability to counter Luftwaffe operations would be seriously impeded. First it would loose valuable airfields within easy striking distance of the main landing area. Secondly a breakdown of No 11's air defense system would not only lengthen response times from No 12 or No 10's fighters, which would give the Luftwaffe pretty much air supremacy over the coastline and enable their Stukas to pound ground forces at will (with RAF fighter probably showing up far too late), but it will also make guidance towards the german formations pretty problematic. Without the sector controllers at Biggin, Kenley etc the british command would have a lot more troubles gaining an accurate picture of the situation to begin with and gaining it in time to be useful. Without the overall command exerted by the sector rooms the engagements would turn into a wild brawl and given the german numerical superiority the RAF would probably bleed dry in a short time, pilots and machines would suffer from growing fatigue and a lack of proper maintenance (which was also one of the major facets of the sector airfields). Lower and lower readiness numbers would be the result and would increase the speed of the viscious circle the RAF would find itself in.

2.) If Word War 2 made one thing abundantly clear then it's the supremacy of the aircraft over the naval surface units. Pretty much everywhere the aircraft (if operating in sufficient numbers, with the correct weapons and with crews sufficiently trained - or as in some cases a large enough dose of dumb luck) finished engagements with enemy surface fleets as victor (see Bismarck, Price of Wales, Yamato, the ops at Crete etc etc). Under circumstances as described above the Luftwaffe would simply pound the harbor installations on the southern coast both to sink the surface units moored there during the day as well as to damage or destroy the harbor installations, piers, cranes, docks, ammunition depots etc. To operate warships need fuel and ammunition and if neither can be loaded because these goods are destroyed or the means to load them are no longer functional ... The Luftwaffe did have a fripping seven Gruppen of Ju 87 Stukas available for a direct assault on naval units. Even if untrained their sheer number would probably either overwhelm or wear down fleet ops after a while.

The second trump card the germans would have in this situation are the narrow waters of the Channel. It doesn't only limit the potential operational area but it also allows the massive use of mine fields which would not only endanger any vessel trying to enter the crucial area but also allow the Kriegsmarine to concentrate its meager forces for the more important tasks. Because of the german air supremacy RN ops would be confined to the hours of darkness which hampers mine clearing (which is limited to the darkness whereas the germans can lay mines day and night at their leisure). If the RN chose to operate in bright light it would find itself under constant attack which, even if failing to cause damage, would eat up ammunition on a grand scale which would hit the important destroyers and cruisers hard.

3.) While I have my doubts about the actual landing and the sea transport situation I am very much doubtful if the British Army could have taken on even a small german force (two or three divisions initially, to be reinforced by mobile formations soon after) in the field once it had passed a certain point. And to exploit the initial weakness of the landing the British Army would have needed excellent Command and Control facilities, quick reaction times both of forces and commanders ... and on top of it all mobile forces. But the British Army wasn't having any of that in 1940, in fact the Wehrmacht always considered them to be rather slow and methodic (Monty turned that into a form of art ). It had lost most of its best equipment on the continent, its best formations were still in extremely bad shape, it was almost devoid of battle-worthy tanks, it suffered from an acute shortage of motor transportation, AT guns, artillery and ammunition (to make matters even worse). As a result its numerically strength meant little when the essential mobility, support and logistics weren't there.

IIRC the only armored formation in somewhat battleworthy state was 1st Armored which translates into one good shot at the german lodging - after that it had little more than static infantry to man static defense lines ... and the Wehrmacht had made short work of static lines a lot more formidable than anything the Brits could put up in France, Belgium and the Netherlands.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:08 PM
David Hayward David Hayward is offline
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Originally Posted by csThor View Post

Please excuse the lengthy blabber. It's just a number of points I'd like to raise ... Under no circumstances I claim to have the holy grail nor do I claim to claim to have a complete picture. I'm just an amateur as well.
Most of the issues you bring up would not have mattered. The RAF didn't have to respond to German attacks on the beach defenses or harbors. All it had to do was fly cover for the Royal Navy as it destroyed the German invasion fleet.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:22 PM
csThor csThor is offline
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Most of the issues you bring up would not have mattered. The RAF didn't have to respond to German attacks on the beach defenses or harbors. All it had to do was fly cover for the Royal Navy as it destroyed the German invasion fleet.
I think you're oversimplifying the issue. The RAF would not have been able to ignore the Luftwaffe (that's a political question as well) nor would it have been able to fly adequate air cover for fleet ops over the Channel (which is where the first line of defense of the RN would be stationed, mostly destroyers and light forces) when its own airfields were north of London. Always remember that getting to a point where an aircraft is useful takes time ... even more when distances grow.
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:35 PM
David Hayward David Hayward is offline
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Originally Posted by csThor View Post
I think you're oversimplifying the issue. The RAF would not have been able to ignore the Luftwaffe (that's a political question as well) nor would it have been able to fly adequate air cover for fleet ops over the Channel (which is where the first line of defense of the RN would be stationed, mostly destroyers and light forces) when its own airfields were north of London. Always remember that getting to a point where an aircraft is useful takes time ... even more when distances grow.
I'm not making it simple. It was simple. The only thing that could reliably stop a German invasion was the Royal Navy. The Brits would have saved enough fighters to protect the Navy long enough to destroy the invasion. They had no other choice, and they knew it. In fact, it is my understanding that they came very close to evacuating several of 11 Group's airfields during the battle.

Once the German invasion started the Royal Navy would have attacked with the remaining RAF fighters flying cover (from bases outside of Germain fighter range). They probably would have taken heavy losses, but there is no doubt that they would have wiped out any attempted German invasion.
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:15 PM
Triggaaar Triggaaar is offline
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Originally Posted by David Hayward View Post
The only thing that could reliably stop a German invasion was the Royal Navy. The Brits would have saved enough fighters to protect the Navy long enough to destroy the invasion. They had no other choice, and they knew it...

Once the German invasion started the Royal Navy would have attacked with the remaining RAF fighters flying cover (from bases outside of Germain fighter range). They probably would have taken heavy losses, but there is no doubt that they would have wiped out any attempted German invasion.
It's an interesting hypothesis. I can understand that the RAF could have saved their fighters outside of the reach of German fighters. But the navy would have had to stay at a similar distance from German basis, where RAF fighters could protect it - wouldn't that have been far enough from a German invasion fleet that they could cross before the navy could get to them?
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Old 04-07-2011, 11:29 PM
David Hayward David Hayward is offline
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Originally Posted by Triggaaar View Post
It's an interesting hypothesis. I can understand that the RAF could have saved their fighters outside of the reach of German fighters. But the navy would have had to stay at a similar distance from German basis, where RAF fighters could protect it - wouldn't that have been far enough from a German invasion fleet that they could cross before the navy could get to them?
I'm sure the Brits would have had enough warning that they'd be able to get their fleet into position. Keep in mind that the German invasion forces would not have nearly the same capabilities as the Allies had in 1944.
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Old 04-08-2011, 12:48 AM
David Hayward David Hayward is offline
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Would Germany have been able to keep the Wehrmacht supplied for any length of time, considering the ability of the RN to disrupt any seaborne supplies carried through the Channel?
Indeed. It wasn't the D-Day landings which won the battle for Normandy. It was the ability of the Allies to keep their armies supplied. The Germans could never have done that in 1940. Especially after the Royal Navy sank all their transports.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:46 AM
Al Schlageter Al Schlageter is offline
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It would take the German invasion fleet 1 to 3 days to reach the invasion beaches (depends on their start points for each sub-fleet). The invasion fleet had a speed of ~3Kts. The tides in the Channel could be at least twice that speed.

The RAF was continually monitoring the invasion assembly ports.

The Royal Navy would attack the German fleet at night! Stukas and other German bombers would have a hard time bombing the RN as it decimated the invasion fleet.

Any resupply of any German troops that managed to get ashore would take at least 3 days to return to the beaches.

RAF BC would not be sitting idly by letting RAF FC do all the fighting. They would be attacking the beaches, the barges in the Channel and the ports in France, Belgium and Holland. The LW would have to dilute their fighter force to cover these threats.
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Old 04-08-2011, 09:48 AM
Sternjaeger
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the most appalling thing is that most people forget that "nazi" is an abbreviation in German language fashion for national-socialism, which actually meant a lot of good for the Germans. Germany saw years of incredible recover after the First World War and many remember the pre-war years as times of wealth and happiness.
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Old 04-08-2011, 01:35 AM
MikeC1980 MikeC1980 is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesehawk View Post
Remember, Germany had just carried out an invasion of Norway, which did give them practice at surprise invasions, so they at least had a taste of what they'd need, but not at the scale that most agree it would have taken to defeat the much better armed and prepared UK.
After the defeat of the French and the British Expeditionary Force, wasn't a lot of the UK's equipment left burning on the road to Dunkirk? I don't think the UK was at all ready to fight off the undefeated German army.

Last edited by MikeC1980; 04-08-2011 at 01:42 AM. Reason: Grammar!
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