wep on RAF planes awol???? boost levels??? no 100 octane fuel:(

[IvanK]

Incorrect Boost indications and Boost Cut out mechanisation was been brought up before release. The developers are aware of it.

[fruitbat]

Originally Posted by IvanK

Incorrect Boost indications and Boost Cut out mechanisation was been brought up before release. The developers are aware of it.

thats great to hear, thanks for posting

[Biggs]

Originally Posted by IvanK

Incorrect Boost indications and Boost Cut out mechanisation was been brought up before release. The developers are aware of it.

Are they aware of the incorrect top speed of thr mkI models?

[2GFlea]

I saw this command in another thread...

186 = thtl_psicutout

I assume that is the Boost Control Cut Out that would allow the pilot to obtain max boost. Is that different from the legacy Il2 WEP command? I'm not sure if that command is bound by default or what it does in game. You see, I'm in North America, so I have to wait for you guys to finish beta...

[IvanK]

The concept of boost Cut out is similar to WEP but different Here is a simplifed description of how it works.

Most RAF/Luftwaffe aircraft had Boost controllers (Most US aircraft at this stage didn't). With Boost control engaged (the norm) the pilot selects the required Boost then as he climbs or descends the Boost controller holds the selected Boost constant without any further pilot action required (below Full throttle height FTH)

In a no Boost controller aeroplane the throttle would need to be progressively opened as you climb until you get to Full throttle height (FTH).

The second function of the boost controller is to limit or "Boost protect" the engine to a rated limit. So the pilot can select Full throttle knowing he is not going to "overboost" the engine. If not equipped with a Boost controller then the additional pilot workload is required to ensure that Boost limits are not excedded.

Boost cutout simply resets the Boost controller limit to some other value above normal rated Boost. In the case of the Spitfires Rated Boost for the MKI, 1A was +6.25Lbs, with MKII at +9lbs. In all cases once Boost Cutout is selected (in the case of the Spits pushing the red boost cut out lever forward and selecting full throttle) will give you +12Lbs boost up to the respective FTH (about from memory 10,500Feet). If desired the pilot could then rotate the Boost cut out switch back (cant do this at the moment in COD on the Spit .. it should be a toggle control). Once done the Boost controller is back using its normal +6.25/+9Lb limit. In the case of the Hurricane the Boost Cut out was a plunger arrangement which works correctly as a toggle in COD. However no change in Boost is evident on the boost gauge.

Its also worth pointing out that at the time of BOB most Boost gauges didn't go up to +12Lbs so Boost cut out (Below FTH) would result in Full scale Boost deflection.

Running at +12lbs brings with it additional cooling and engine wear problems.

As others have stated +12Lbs Boost was only possible if 100 Octane fuel was being used. Its fair enough to state that all operational RAF fighters were running 100 octane fuel during the battle.

So this area needs to be tweaked.

[Biggs]

So yor saying that normal full throttle boost in thr mkII should be +9lb and +12lb when opening the boost gate? As of rigt now its only +9lb AFTER opening the boost gate....

Also what is the point of the mkIa in this sim? I cant quite figure it out... If the prop pitch in the mkIa isnt a bug then what makes it any different from the mkI (besides the fact that it has a slower top speed)?

Are the devs aware that the propellers and nose cone of the mkIa in game are those of the Rotol CSP unit?

[IvanK]

"So yor saying that normal full throttle boost in the mkII should be +9lb and +12lb when opening the boost gate? As of rigt now its only +9lb AFTER opening the boost gate...."

Exactly, correct terminology is selecting Boost Cut out to allow +12Lbs.



I am not sure if the devs are aware of Rotol versus DH spinner and blade profiles from 3D graphics point of view with respect the Spitfire. I will have a look myself and see.

[Moggy]

Originally Posted by IvanK

"So yor saying that normal full throttle boost in the mkII should be +9lb and +12lb when opening the boost gate? As of rigt now its only +9lb AFTER opening the boost gate...."

Exactly, correct terminology is selecting Boost Cut out to allow +12Lbs.

The pilots also had to report if they had pulled the boost plug (commonly referred to as 'pulling the tit') in their combat report after each flight.

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by IvanK

"So yor saying that normal full throttle boost in the mkII should be +9lb and +12lb when opening the boost gate? As of rigt now its only +9lb AFTER opening the boost gate...."

Exactly, correct terminology is selecting Boost Cut out to allow +12Lbs.



I am not sure if the devs are aware of Rotol versus DH spinner and blade profiles from 3D graphics point of view with respect the Spitfire. I will have a look myself and see.

Im not sure if power settings for 100 Octan fuel Merlin III which was used in SPitfire Mark 1 was +6 1/2 lbs ( nominal power ) and +12 lbs ( emergency power). It is possible that Merlin III with 100 octan fuel had different power settings - similar to Merlin XII ( Spitfire Mark II) and Merlin 45 early ( Spitfire Mark V)

Look at these document for Merlin III engine from 1940:



IT doesnt look similar to Merlin XII which used also 100 octan fuel?




Also developers really dont care too much RL performacne of BoB planes ( Spitfire, Hurricane and 109). It is another their fault in these game. I just check COD manual with peformacne data for Spitfire, Hurricane and 109 where is very wrong data for these planes ( climb rate, maximum speeds and turn rate).

Here are some RL data for these planes:


Spitfire Mark I from BOB period ( CS propeller, aditional armour and windshield)

Here is speed with old power settings - +6 1/2 lbs and with new emergency power - + 12 lbs.




Spitfire MK1 climb rate at 6 1/2 lbs:





Spitfire turn rate at 6 1/2 lbs CSP:





Hurricane MK1 from BOB peroid ( CS propeller, aditional armour, 100 octan fuel)




Climb rate for Hurricane MK1 but without aditional armour and armoured winshield



For comparison climb rate at 6 1/2 lbs Hurricane withou armour and with aditional armour




And the same with speed - Hurrciane MK1 without aditional armour



( Hurricane from BOB peroid with aditional armour/ armoured windshield would be slowier)



Bf 109 E-3 with DB 601 Aa engine - 1.45 Ata emergency power:

D a t e n b l a t t Me 109.

A b m e s s u n g e n:

Spannweite 9,90 m

Gesamtlänge 8,76 m

Grösste Höhe 2,45 m

Flügelfläche 16,40 m


G e w i c h t e:

Zelle 650 kg
Triebwerk 1075 "
Ständige Ausrüstung 85 "
Zusätliche Ausrüstung 200 "
Rüstgewicht 2010 kg
Zuladung 530 kg
Fluggewicht 2540 kg


M o t o r l e i s t u n g:

1) Nennleistung 1100 PS in 3700 m Höhe
bei 2400 U/Min.
(5 min. Kurzleistung in 3700 m Höhe)

Erhöhte Dauerleistung 1050 PS in 4100 m Höhe
bei 2400 U/min
(30 Min.)

Dauerleistung 1000 PS in 4500 m Höhe

Sparsame Dauerleistung 970 PS in 3700 m Höhe
Bei 2250 U/Min.

2) Startleistung 1175 PS in 0 m Höhe
(zulässige Dauer 1 Min.)
bei 2500 U/Min.

3) Bodenleistung 1015 PS in 0 m Höhe
Kurzleistung (5 Min. Dauer)
bei 2400 U/Min.

Erhöhte Dauerleistung 950 PS in 0 m Höhe
(zulässige Dauer 30 Min.)
bei 2300 U/Min.

Dauerleistung 860 PS in 0 m Höhe
bei 2200 U/Min.



Speed:

Höchtsgeschwindigeit in 0 m 500 km/h
in 1000 m 510 "
in 2000 m 530 "
in 3000 m 540 "
in 4000 m 555 "
in 5000 m 570 "
in 6000 m 565 km/h
in 7000 m 560 km/h



Climb rate:

S t e i g z e i t e n.


Steigzeit auf 1000 m 1,0 Minuten
auf 2000 m 1,9 "
auf 3000 m 3,0 "
auf 4000 m 3,8 "
auf 5000 m 4,9 "
auf 6000 m 6,3 "





Turn rate :

These are, at Sea Level and at 6000 m, with and without deploying flaps to aid turning :

Without use of flaps :
at 0 m altitude - 170 m (557 feet), at 6000 m (19 685 feet) altitude - 320 m (1050 feet).

With use of flaps :
at 0 m altitude - 125 m (410 feet), at 6000 m (19 685 feet) altitude - 230 m (754 feet).


Similiar figures are given by a calculation by Messerschmitt AG on Bf 109E turn times and radius in an internal Messerschmitt report.

The calculation was based on a similiar set of data, but assumes the slightlly lower power output of the DB 601A-1 at 990 PS. Conditions in the calculation were 2540 kg weight, 990 PS output, an altitude of 0 m and no height loss. Under these conditions, the turning characteristics of the Bf 109E were as follows :

Turn time for 360 degrees: 18,92 seconds.
Turn radius for above turn: 203 m

Take note that the smallest turning radius and the best turning time do not occur at the same airspeed, which would

Further calculations were made for a diving turn of a descent rate of -50 m/sec, which would be equivalent translate to an overall power output

Turn time for 360 degrees in a -50m/sec diving turn : 11,5 seconds.
Turn radius for the -50m/sec diving turn above : 190 m



For comparison turn rate for Spitfire MK1, Hurricane MK1, 109 E-4


SPITFIRE Mk.I

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.2s 13.5s 14.7s -
Two 360s - 24.9s 28.2s 30.3s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.8s 12.8s 13.4s 14.1s
Two 360s - 24.4s 28.2s 29.9s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.0s 17.8s 20.8s
Full Flaps - 15.1s 16.4s 18.1s 21.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 125mph 125mph 125mph 120mph


Hawker Hurricane Mk I

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.1s 12.4s 13.6s -
Two 360s - 24.2s 25.3s 30.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 10.2s 11.7s 12.9s 15.0s
Two 360s - 23.6s 26.2s 28.5s 33.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 14.8s 16.4s 18.5s 22.1s
Full Flaps - 14.8s 16.6s 18.4s 22.2s
Best Flap - full full full full
Speed/best 105mph 105mph 100mph 100mph


Bf-109E-4

Turn Performance
300mph - 1,000ft 5,000ft 10,000ft 15,000ft
One 360 - 12.9s 13.4s 15.4s -
Two 360s - 29.4s 31.2s 35.0s -

250mph
One 360 - 12.9s 13.7s 15.5s 16.7s
Two 360s - 31.0s 32.4s 36.5s 41.2s

Sustained
No Flaps - 18.0s 19.3s 21.2s 24.1s
Full Flaps - 19.0s 19.8s 21.7s 24.8s
Best Flap - none none none none
Speed/best - 120mph 120mph 120mph 115mph





RL Data Speed for comparsion between Sptfire MK1 +12 lbs ( red) - Hurricane MK1 +12 lbs ( green) - 109 E-3 1.45 Ata ( black)






And now for comparson data from COD:












COD looks really off here. Development team really didnt make their homework like we should expect.

[Sutts]

Originally Posted by IvanK

Most RAF/Luftwaffe aircraft had Boost controllers (Most US aircraft at this stage didn't). With Boost control engaged (the norm) the pilot selects the required Boost then as he climbs or descends the Boost controller holds the selected Boost constant without any further pilot action required (below Full throttle height FTH)

In a no Boost controller aeroplane the throttle would need to be progressively opened as you climb until you get to Full throttle height (FTH).

Thanks for the explanation IvanK. Is my understanding correct please?.....

The boost controller (limiter) will only hold the boost constant (at rated boost) if a throttle setting is selected which would exceed that rated boost. If I select a lower boost value like 3lbs in a climb, the controller won't feed in more throttle to maintain that value will it?

I think what I'm trying to say is that the controller is only capable of maintaining a boost value by reducing throttle input, not by increasing it.

Does that make sense?

Thanks