A few questions from a new player

[Loopy]

Summoner doesn't seem to be affecting the summons of any of my units. Demonologists don't get stronger demons, Engineers don't make stronger droids, and Rune Mages don't summon stronger Illusions. Demonologists have already been mentioned to be bugged, and I can understand if Engineers don't get the buff since they are building a droid, not summoning it, but are rune mages not supposed to be affected? Or does the Talent description not show the summoner bonus even though it works in battle?

I was actually considering going for a high crit build with trigger since I already had about +25% crit, but he didn't have the right item slots and I would have had to dump one of my lovely -% leadership items to take him.


EDIT: Some testing. No troops showed a higher summoning limit on the talent description with a summoning skill, but demonologists seem to get a buff (4.5k leadership demon summoned when talent card says 1.5-3k) while Engineers and Rune Mages don't. Going by the skill description this makes sense because Rune Mages and Engineers "create" units while Demonologists "Summon" units and the Summoner skill says it only improves summoned units, but now I'm confused as to why I've read so many people saying that rune mages are great with summoner while Demonologists aren't . Has the effect of summoner been constantly changing over game versions or something? Or are they just referring to phantomed rune mage + resurrecting things?

[Sir Whiskers]

Originally Posted by Loopy

Summoner doesn't seem to be affecting the summons of any of my units. Demonologists don't get stronger demons, Engineers don't make stronger droids, and Rune Mages don't summon stronger Illusions...

EDIT: Some testing. No troops showed a higher summoning limit on the talent description with a summoning skill, but demonologists seem to get a buff (4.5k leadership demon summoned when talent card says 1.5-3k)...

Yep, the description for the Summoner skill isn't quite accurate. It doesn't really make units stronger, but it does increase the leadership amount that is summoned, as well as the % that the Phantom spell creates.

[Fatt_Shade]

Hm . . . it could be bug in your game, but i`m sure Summoner skill from Magic tree boost any summoning ability from units. I know it odes for Rune mages, Royal griffins, and Orc trackers, i just finished game with some of tohse units.
If you haven`t already get 3 lvl summoner, save game and check before and after lvling it checking some unit`s ability.
For droid making with mechanic you can boost up with Neatness skill, in Mind tree, it`s nice boost for them, but only effects 1 unit in game, so think before investing runes.
As for max critical you have 2 choices, as many ppl wrote on this forum, all orc army + paladin for resurrection, or human/elf mix, with royal grifins for +morale and distracting enemy with summons. 3 lvl distortion magic, and precision is a must for both lineups. Human/elf have bonus morale, on other hand goblin lineup have some ridiculous dmg, Aoe from catapults, unstoppable for goblins and lets not forget astral attack for goblin shamans (and they give you new units after every battle-commander talent, so less need to run around islands to restock army).

[Loopy]

Without summoner:

28 Demonologists summon 26 Cerberus (Cerberi?), 26x90 = 2340 leadership, talent says 1470-2940 so its correct.
3 rune mages with maxed magic runes summon 60 Angelic Guard, 60x60 = 3600 leadership just as talent says.
16 Engineers summon 16 Guard droids, 16x120= 1920 leadership, talent says 1600-1920 so its correct.

With summoner it is all the same except demonologists summon around 4.5k of units, which is actually slightly higher than they should but I suppose the game rounds up. Yes, I made sure that I had enough mind runes after buying 3 ranks of summoner so the rune mage's power didn't go down.

Perhaps it was a patch change? Rune Mages seem overpowered as it is. If summoner were to affect them then they would be able to summon the Phantom Gyphons with about 90% physical resistance after all my + items and they would be making about 7.2k leadership worth of them even as my personal leadership is only 6k. All that would be ludacrisly overpowered, without summoner its only about 4.8k worth of summons which is at least a sane number even if it is still really strong. As the person who just started playing this week, I hate to call you guys wrong, but maybe you should re-test on your own game to see if it still works? I'm at patch level 1.3.1, tell me if you are using a different patch. As I said before, going by a strict reading of the skill it makes some sense. Rune Mages don't summon units, they create them, so it shouldn't affect them. It might have even been a bug before.

[Fatt_Shade]

No prob man, no said you call us wrong it`s just diferent ppl have diferent problems and situations. I just now say perma sheep on osme paladins, some1 going with 120 sheep`s, which were paladins with turn back time casted on them, while in sheep form
On this topic, i say in my game Summoner boost Royal grifins, Orc trackers, all Thorns (warrior, archer and king), Dryads first skill, Demon summon skill. But doesnt effect Demonologist or Rune mage (here is my bad in earlier post). Rune mages are already overpowered with 1.31 patch, i had idea to change rune bonuses for other units, but got lost in trying
As for mechanic look into Neatness skill, nice bonus, and if you plan on destroying bunch of items you dont use later in the game, for crystals/runes not bad investment.

[ckdamascus]

A lot of answers are in the ultimate manual.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=18453

Something gets lost in the translation, but basically the summoner skill affects these abilities.

"""Operates on spells Natural Call, Necromancer’s Call, Portal of Demons, Phantom and on talents of beings
Give birth Gobots, Heavenly Guards, Appeal of Demons, Demonic Creatures, to Call Thorns, to Call the
Bear, to Lift Undead, Budding and Sowing.
"""

Rune Mages are not listed though since the manual was written before rune mages existed.

Same with the engineers. It is possible they do not consider them in the group, or it is a bug.

[Loopy]

Ahh, so Demonologists are supposed to benefit it seems (assuming that Demonic Beasts = Demonic Creatures). It must just be a bug in the displayed leadership value, which is a total lie.

I saw that thread before, but didn't realize it was actually an expanded guide to the game. At first glance it sounded just like the standard manual with a few corrections to the mistakes that seem to be in every game's manual these days.

[Zechnophobe]

Originally Posted by Loopy

Ahh, so Demonologists are supposed to benefit it seems (assuming that Demonic Beasts = Demonic Creatures). It must just be a bug in the displayed leadership value, which is a total lie.

I saw that thread before, but didn't realize it was actually an expanded guide to the game. At first glance it sounded just like the standard manual with a few corrections to the mistakes that seem to be in every game's manual these days.

Looks to me like they have to special case each 'summon' effect, and so the new Crossworlds units didn't get in there. Both Rune Mages and Engineers are new in Orcs on the March, and probably got left off. Sad, really. Rune Mages needed the help.