Dot Visibility in COD and Other Flight ims.

[flyingblind]

Originally Posted by zapatista

if the main visibility "faults" mentioned earlier in this thread are corrected, you'd find most people with reasonably normal vision will have no major problems seeing planes at "normal RL visible distances" (since if they wear glasses in real life, they would wear them while using the pc).

also age related vision deterioration (in westerners) tends to affect near vision, less so far vision. so you might have some problems reading the cockpit instruments, but have less problems spotting a me-109 at 1500 meters

one other issue that many il2 users are not fully aware of, is that they need to set their FoV (field of view) settings correctly in the game for their monitor size (and for any given monitor there is only one correct FoV setting therefore). most il2 users will use the smaller FoV settings as a zoom magnifier to scan the ground, or to investigate a blip on the horizon, and this is also a way of "gaming the game" which does not represent "normal vision" (ie it is an artificial enhancement, as no ww2 fighter pilots had a pair of binoculars strapped to their face).

Regarding your comment about vision in the over 50s (me) do you mean in real life or in game because in game you only have to focus on the screen surface. In real life I wear bifocals but playing the game I find reading glasses work best.

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by zapatista

one other issue that many il2 users are not fully aware of, is that they need to set their FoV (field of view) settings correctly in the game for their monitor size (and for any given monitor there is only one correct FoV setting therefore). most il2 users will use the smaller FoV settings as a zoom magnifier to scan the ground, or to investigate a blip on the horizon, and this is also a way of "gaming the game" which does not represent "normal vision" (ie it is an artificial enhancement, as no ww2 fighter pilots had a pair of binoculars strapped to their face).

I've been reading through the thread and I agree with a lot of the points you make and appreciate the effort you have gone to explain stuff but I really have to disagree with you there. The 'zoom' function does better represent real vision imo as in reality we can focus in on things that are far away. It isn't really possible to have a high field of vision and have things appear at their real world size in a game on a 2d screen.

If the object itself increases in size as it gets farther away (to try and keep it looking 'normal sized') then in game it would just look like the object isn't getting any farther away. Whether zoom was put into this sim intentionally to solve this problem or not is a different story but zoom at least goes some way to addressing the problems of emmulating vision on a 2d screen.

There was a post on the BI forums about this when someone was complaining about being able to zoom at the click of the mouse in Arma II. One of the developers explain this but i'm having trouble finding the post.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by zapatista

if the main visibility "faults" mentioned earlier in this thread are corrected, you'd find most people with reasonably normal vision will have no major problems seeing planes at "normal RL visible distances" (since if they wear glasses in real life, they would wear them while using the pc).

also age related vision deterioration (in westerners) tends to affect near vision, less so far vision. so you might have some problems reading the cockpit instruments, but have less problems spotting a me-109 at 1500 meters

one other issue that many il2 users are not fully aware of, is that they need to set their FoV (field of view) settings correctly in the game for their monitor size (and for any given monitor there is only one correct FoV setting therefore). most il2 users will use the smaller FoV settings as a zoom magnifier to scan the ground, or to investigate a blip on the horizon, and this is also a way of "gaming the game" which does not represent "normal vision" (ie it is an artificial enhancement, as no ww2 fighter pilots had a pair of binoculars strapped to their face).

1) Have to disagree. Most, if not all of us don't have monitors that present a real-life sized image, hence the need to zoom. That's why the FOV functionality is there.

2) Also, If it hasn't already been mentioned, you have to run old IL-2 in native 4:3 aspect ratio, no matter your monitor size, or weird things happen like chopped off views on the peripheral or flattened dots in the distance.

[Wolf_Rider]

FoV isn't a zoom though... the model and background remain at the same distance relative to each other, in relation to the viewer, whilst more or less of the background is seen by the viewer depending on the FoV angle selected.

yes, il2 was designed for 4:3 CRT monitors

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

1) Have to disagree. Most, if not all of us don't have monitors that present a real-life sized image, hence the need to zoom. That's why the FOV functionality is there.

you are not correct there blaster. if you have a monitor larger then roughly 19', there is a fov setting that allows you to (theoretically) view in-game objects in their right real life sizes, by setting the in-game FoV to correspond to how large your monitor is

obviously for a 19' or 20' monitor this would be a fairly narrow FoV setting (roughly 40 degree's), and you'd have to sit reasonably close to your monitor. the fact it only provides a blinkered narrow view into the il2 world at that setting is entirely limited by the small "window" you are using, and switching to a wider FoV to obtain artificially enlarged peripheral vision to "game the game" is not an excuse to additionally have to accept other object size errors in the game (which do exist in il2, and hopefully most will all be corrected in BoB/SoW)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

2) Also, If it hasn't already been mentioned, you have to run old IL-2 in native 4:3 aspect ratio, no matter your monitor size, or weird things happen like chopped off views on the peripheral or flattened dots in the distance.

not correct, there is no need for you to end up with any distortions or "chopped off view on the peripheral". with a minor config file edit you can perfectly display il2 on your widescreen monitor, and it doesnt introduce any display errors like visual distortions etc (it simply cuts a small strip of the top and bottom of the 5:4 or 4:3 original image, a small compromise for an initial work around most use.

in the screenshot below the orange box is the view you endup with for a widescreen monitor (presuming you correctly edited the config file)

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by zapatista

you are not correct there blaster. if you have a monitor larger then roughly 19', there is a fov setting that allows you to (theoretically) view in-game objects in their right real life sizes, by setting the in-game FoV to correspond to how large your monitor is

obviously for a 19' or 20' monitor this would be a fairly narrow FoV setting (roughly 40 degree's), and you'd have to sit reasonably close to your monitor. the fact it only provides a blinkered narrow view into the il2 world at that setting is entirely limited by the small "window" you are using, and switching to a wider FoV to obtain artificially enlarged peripheral vision to "game the game" is not an excuse to additionally have to accept other object size errors in the game (which do exist in il2, and hopefully most will all be corrected in BoB/SoW)

Adding more LOD computations should help with the dots. I will assume by your answer (i.e., "blinkered narrow view") that you agree with me that playing the game in one FOV to obtain a sense of realism is a ridiculous notion.

not correct, there is no need for you to end up with any distortions or "chopped off view on the peripheral". with a minor config file edit you can perfectly display il2 on your widescreen monitor, and it doesnt introduce any display errors like visual distortions etc (it simply cuts a small strip of the top and bottom of the 5:4 or 4:3 original image, a small compromise for an initial work around most use.

in the screenshot below the orange box is the view you endup with for a widescreen monitor (presuming you correctly edited the config file)

Actually, this is exactly what I was talking about. Chopping off the screen is a problem imo. For one, it reduces visibility of the guages. For example, view of the alitmeter gauge on certian planes where you need to view it simultaneously while flying to target in a low level bomb drop due to the altitude bomb/torpedo drop restrictions in 4.10. Makes it pretty tough if you can't see the gauge without moving your head up and down. Another example, the slip indicator. I like to see that without moving my head up and down when I'm turning.

For your own interest,you might also want to investigate the difference in the dots at comparable distance. On my monitor it actually flattens them a bit in 16:10 verses 4:3.

Bottom line, it boils down to personal taste. I would rather set up a custom 4:3 resolution on my 16:10 monitor than have the screen cut off for the reasons I mentioned, the cutoff screen and the flattening of the dots (albeit, there is still some flattening verses if I had a monitor with 4:3 native resolution).

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

you agree with me that playing the game in one FOV to obtain a sense of realism is a ridiculous notion.

no i dont agree at all with you this thread is discussing "dot and LoD visibility" in il2 and CoD, and the assumption is that therefore your pc system is setup correctly to display in-objects in their true to life sizes (ie have the ingame FoV set correctly for your monitor size). those players who then like to fly in an in-game world with objects correctly displayed in their true to life sizes and "distance visibility", can then briefly use snap views in certain conditions to overcome the limitations of sitting in their living rooms behind a pc, rather then be in a real fighter aircraft of ww2 (ie briefly zoom in when aiming at a specific part of an enemy plane, or briefly use increased peripheral view during a dogfight to maintain SA). some il2 users (like you) prefer to 90% of the time fly around in distorted FoV settings to "see more of the il2 world" around them (or pit gauges), or constantly use the zoom view like they would a pair of binoculars to scan the ground below them for targets. that is perfectly fine, each uses the game as they personally prefer, but you then cant complain the ingame objects are distorted or not correctly visible

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Actually, this is exactly what I was talking about. Chopping off the screen is a problem imo.

that is not an "error" in the game itself, its simply a limitation in your (and mine) financial resources to have a large enough monitor for how you personally would like to use the game. in your example your monitor is simply not large enough to display everything you want onscreen (a real pilot would simply lean back in the cockpit and hence see more gauges ?). if you have a smaller widescreen monitor that doesnt display enough gauges for your personal liking in landscape mode, you can use it in portrait mode if you really want the increased vertical area's to be visible (and edit the config ini file to that portrait resolution). it will display the image perfectly in il2 without distortion, and it will give you the significantly increased vertical viewing area you seem to be asking for (some people use a 3 screen setup in that configuration, there are old posts at the zoo on this)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

[B]For one, it reduces visibility of the guages. For example, view of the alitmeter gauge on certian planes where you need to view it simultaneously while flying to target in a low level bomb drop due to the altitude bomb/torpedo drop restrictions in 4.10. Makes it pretty tough if you can't see the gauge without moving your head up and down. Another example, the slip indicator. I like to see that without moving my head up and down when I'm turning.

sure, but if you buy a sports car you cant complain about it not being able to haul cattle to market, or if you buy a pickup you cant complain it cant be competitive in the 24 hr of lemans race. its horses for courses really, not a design error. the main point you raised here in this thread (see OP topic) is can il2 (designed in the 4:3 era 10 yrs ago) correctly display its image on a widescreen monitor without distortion (and without black borders), and the answer is yes, it does this perfectly fine

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

For your own interest,you might also want to investigate the difference in the dots at comparable distance. On my monitor it actually flattens them a bit in 16:10 verses 4:3.

there is nothing to investigate there. if you correctly edit your config file there is no distortion whatsoever, if you purposefully however decided you preferred to squeeze the full 4:3 screen display into a a widescreen display then obviously it will distort everything onscreen (including dots)

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Bottom line, it boils down to personal taste. I would rather set up a custom 4:3 resolution on my 16:10 monitor than have the screen cut off for the reasons I mentioned, the cutoff screen and the flattening of the dots (albeit, there is still some flattening verses if I had a monitor with 4:3 native resolution).

yups, and that is your personal choice of how to use the game (which is perfectly fine, use it however suits you best). it isnt however a design error that you end up with distorted objects on screen or lack visibility in the cockpit for your gauges

i am much more concerned that with a perfectly setup system to display objects as true to life as possible, there are significant visibility problems to try and spot and track objects ingame (compared to real life visibility in a similar situation), and that most people therefore have to rely on artificial "distortion" settings to try and compensate for these errors (use zoom views, reduce screen resolution, load purpose made "ultra visible skins" for planes that make them standout more, etc ).

[Wolf_Rider]

the "chopping off" the top and bottom, is because the sim wasn't built for wide view aspect, it was built for 4:3 aspect, and changing the FoV doesn't make the objects bigger or smaller, as the objects/ background (terrain) remain at consistent distances relative to the viewer.
What running on a larger monitor does is, is it gives more defintion to the objects because the window is larger.

[MadBlaster]

Originally Posted by zapatista

no i dont agree at all with you this thread is discussing "dot and LoD visibility" in il2 and CoD, and the assumption is that therefore your pc system is setup correctly to display in-objects in their true to life sizes (ie have the ingame FoV set correctly for your monitor size). those players who then like to fly in an in-game world with objects correctly displayed in their true to life sizes and "distance visibility", can then briefly use snap views in certain conditions to overcome the limitations of sitting in their living rooms behind a pc, rather then be in a real fighter aircraft of ww2 (ie briefly zoom in when aiming at a specific part of an enemy plane, or briefly use increased peripheral view during a dogfight to maintain SA). some il2 users (like you) prefer to 90% of the time fly around in distorted FoV settings to "see more of the il2 world" around them (or pit gauges), or constantly use the zoom view like they would a pair of binoculars to scan the ground below them for targets. that is perfectly fine, each uses the game as they personally prefer, but you then cant complain the ingame objects are distorted or not correctly visible


that is not an "error" in the game itself, its simply a limitation in your (and mine) financial resources to have a large enough monitor for how you personally would like to use the game. in your example your monitor is simply not large enough to display everything you want onscreen (a real pilot would simply lean back in the cockpit and hence see more gauges ?). if you have a smaller widescreen monitor that doesnt display enough gauges for your personal liking in landscape mode, you can use it in portrait mode if you really want the increased vertical area's to be visible (and edit the config ini file to that portrait resolution). it will display the image perfectly in il2 without distortion, and it will give you the significantly increased vertical viewing area you seem to be asking for (some people use a 3 screen setup in that configuration, there are old posts at the zoo on this)



sure, but if you buy a sports car you cant complain about it not being able to haul cattle to market, or if you buy a pickup you cant complain it cant be competitive in the 24 hr of lemans race. its horses for courses really, not a design error. the main point you raised here in this thread (see OP topic) is can il2 (designed in the 4:3 era 10 yrs ago) correctly display its image on a widescreen monitor without distortion (and without black borders), and the answer is yes, it does this perfectly fine



there is nothing to investigate there. if you correctly edit your config file there is no distortion whatsoever, if you purposefully however decided you preferred to squeeze the full 4:3 screen display into a a widescreen display then obviously it will distort everything onscreen (including dots)



yups, and that is your personal choice of how to use the game (which is perfectly fine, use it however suits you best). it isnt however a design error that you end up with distorted objects on screen or lack visibility in the cockpit for your gauges

i am much more concerned that with a perfectly setup system to display objects as true to life as possible, there are significant visibility problems to try and spot and track objects ingame (compared to real life visibility in a similar situation), and that most people therefore have to rely on artificial "distortion" settings to try and compensate for these errors (use zoom views, reduce screen resolution, load purpose made "ultra visible skins" for planes that make them standout more, etc ).

Well, all I can say is keeping the FOV static at around 40-45 degrees with your head buried in a 20' monitor and using snapshots to compensate because you have no peripheral..., just so you can keep the objects life-sized??? That sounds like self-imposed hell to me. I would really like to see a video of that zapatista.

But to the bigger question, what I think needs to also happen is the code in CoD needs to be visually optimized for a bunch of different resolutions (16:10, 16:9...etc.) instead of just one like IL-2 was. I think you would agree with that.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

Well, all I can say is keeping the FOV static at around 40-45 degrees with your head buried in a 20' monitor and using snapshots to compensate because you have no peripheral..., just so you can keep the objects life-sized??? That sounds like self-imposed hell to me. I would really like to see a video of that zapatista.

you won't get "peripheral vision" without a full wrap around (270°) monitor setup

Originally Posted by MadBlaster

But to the bigger question, what I think needs to also happen is the code in CoD needs to be visually optimized for a bunch of different resolutions (16:10, 16:9...etc.) instead of just one like IL-2 was. I think you would agree with that.

that consensus was reached years ago.


let's see how 1C has addressed it in CoD and take it from there