The new bomb fuzing needs to be an option.

[JHartikka]

Pilots Wished Bomb SALVO Fix - Got a Forced Delay 410m Fuse Instead!

Originally Posted by JG53Frankyboy

i also thinking that adding this arming time for the bombfuze was the last thing this game needed

With all respect to the fine voluntary work for developing this fine historical IL2 flight simulator I certainly must agree with you!

The IL2 sim used to have very finely made simulation for low bombing modes prior to 410m! The bomb actually bounced or slided in these simulations on the ground like the wartime expert low bombing 'jabo' pilots performed it, for instance!

As a virtual bomber pilot familiar with real history of delay low bombing styles like slide / bounce bombing it is very regrettable that we the 410m now denies these most exciting and skill demanding bombing modes.

Originally Posted by JtD

German fuses were timed and the ones used for low level horizontal attack used arming times of about 1s and delay settings of 14s. Note that due to the technical characteristics of the fuse the "save" arming time was about 1.6s minimum, lower than that would be risking duds.

Thank you for information! Here is a description that appears to match and supplement your fuse knowledge:


The Wartime German Bomb Fuse with Switchable Safety Delay

A story I recalled from Finnish wartime recollections about German bombs electric fuse. The big German bombs were known to have an electric fuse with safety delay option. It was rather simple yet versatile.

It could be used in automatic 'safety delay mode' (like the forced 410m fuse) or manually in no safety delay mode (quite unlike the forced 410m fuse). It even allowed arming and disarming bomb and switching safety delay on or off during flight.

I have understood that these electric fuses were used with bombers having crew more than on person so the one responsible for bomb release could control bomb arming and disarming. The cases I have collected from my country about small bombs like fighter bombs indicate that these had no safety delay.


German Electric Fuse Circuit Description

There were two capacitors in the German electric bomb fuse circuit. The first capacitor was the one charged from aircraft. It was connected to second actual fuse capacitor through a delay resistor between them.

When capacitor nr. 1 got a charge from a connector attached to the bomb, it would start charge the nr. 2 capacitor through the resistor which slowed the charging and thus caused an arming delay or safety delay. I guess the 410m 2 s safety fuse is related to those bombs having this electric fuse arming mode?

Knowing the capacitor 1 - resistor - capacitor 2 - electric fuse circuit we can now understand the operating modes of this German electric bomb fuse:


Electric Fuse Operating Modes

1. Automatic Safety Delay: When used as automatic, an electric connector attached through a swiveled arm to the bomb would give the capacitor nr. 1 electric charge shot just before the connector attached to a swiveled arm would be ripped off from the falling bomb. Now the bomb would be armed in free fall after the actual fusecapacitor nr. 2 would be charged through the resistor causing the automatic arming safety delay.

2. Manual arm and disarm from onboard: If the bomber staff person responsible for bombing gives the bomb a charge shot prior to releasing a bomb, it will arm itself in the alleged time and when released later, it will drop with no safety delay. He could also decide to disarm the bomb by shortcircuiting the bomb arming circuit. When shortcircuited, the arming capacitor nr 2 would bleed empty from charge through the delay resistor in about the time of the safety delay and the bomb would be disarmed again.

We see that this kind of electric bomb fuse circuit would allow the bomber crew to arm and disarm any bomb connected to onboard arming circuit and release the bomb either disarmed or armed. Further, this bomb arming circuit gave the crew an option to decide whether to use safety delay or not..! Alas, we virtual bomber pilots were not allowed to decide setting safety delay on or off with the rather incorrect 410m fuse...


Regards,

- J. Hartikka -

Finland


First Line HL Pilots about 410m Bomb Fuse

In this thread, we will discuss in proper civilized manner, of course. However, I guess that on the long run regarding developing this historical sim further it may be useful to get some direct user feedback, too. Here are some excerpts from HL pager discussions to tell how noted 'front line' virtual pilots really feel with the flawed 410m fuse. For obvious reasons I am pasting their feelings here incognito:

Originally Posted by Experienced virtual war ace in HL pager

...cause low bombing in 4.10 has just be f##### up

I tried to bomb some tgts w Pe-3 at ~ 150m, low level bombing, and bombs didnt even explode...whats the height limit for dropping?!

Originally Posted by A very skilled virtual war ace in HL pager

i was told about 4.10
)))
*full ##iiiiiit* for bombers and jabo..agree?

Originally Posted by A virtual bomber pilot and history expert in HL pager

nain ne meittia kohtelee kuin spitaalisia))

Translated: They treat us (bomber pilots) like ve vere leprous ))

Originally Posted by Respected virtual war player in HL pager

####### 4.10 noob patch-((

Originally Posted by HL pager

Fortunately the new 410m '##### fuse' does not prevent all low bombing...

One IL2 kills 14 tanks + 1 flak

http://war.by-airforce.com/rep/rep_10122.html

Wartime Aircraft Photos

Here are more photos that I scanned from my late uncle's album. More old photos are on threads http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...d=1#post210220 and http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...588#post216588

[Ernst]

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.

[KG26_Alpha]

Again the problem is the casing stops the arming of the bomb if it touches the water/land/scenery before 2 seconds.

The arming could/should have been done on the bombs velocity not contact with terrain.

As already said by TD stopping Dog Fight server spawn killers dropping bombs at home bases is the main benefit of the 2 second delay in arming.





.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by Ernst

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.

I'd say the reason skip wasn't done routinely against shipping was that, similar to torpedo runs, for any success you exposed yourself to the broad side of the ship that you attacked, you also had to get really close to your target to release the bomb. Every gun on that side of the boat would open up at you and you had a high probability of getting shot down.

In the sim the AI is too easy to fool following a decending curved path on your attack run.

When dive bombing your generally attacking the ship in its bow/stern axis so you've got a larger margin for error in your attack. You dont get as close to the ship and the ships guns can't all get a bead on you at the same time. In the sim the AI seems to be able to predict your attack path in a classic divebombing run and you've got a higher chance of getting hit using this method.

In real life I am sure that pilots would have used the strategies that gave them the best chance of wining and getting home alive.

In the sim you'ld be a mug not to use the method thats going to get your team the most points!

If skip bombing is more difficult pilots will just practice more and still get the same amount of kills. Without changes to the AAA AI it's still going to be the safest option, therefore pilots will still do it!

Cheers!

Cheers!

[JG52Uther]

Originally Posted by Ernst

Sorry I do not agree. Now the most exciting and demanding method are really most eciting e demanding. Before any player could do, now one the skilled ones.

This skilled pilot you quote are just used to bomb that old way, now they have to learn again. Just this. Go training. Skip bombing is not supposed to be easy, even for good pilots. If it was, there was none reason for especialized dive bombers for better precision.

What i see is that this complains are just wounded egos of pilots not capable to score like they do before. From that supposed VVS or luftwaffe "heroes" striking massive columns of tanks and ships in one fly by.

So the fact that a fixed 2 second fuse for all bombs is wrong isn't bothering you at all...Anyway,doesn't matter now,CoD is on the way,I don't really care anymore

[Ernst]

The fixed 2 second is just because TD had not bomb fusing times for each specific bomb or the implementation time would have much more higher etc. Ask them why they used this fixed value. But i am sure this can be improved if they want.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

So the fact that a fixed 2 second fuse for all bombs is wrong isn't bothering you at all...Anyway,doesn't matter now,CoD is on the way,I don't really care anymore

It's only that the 2 sec. delay is less wrong than no delay!
Also the complaining about case and fuse, it's not modelled!
All TD can do is minimizing the errors, not remove them!

[ElAurens]

Well, in this case they did not minimize an error, they created a larger one.

I'm with JG52Uther on this now. Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.

[I/ZG52_Gaga]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Cliffs of Dover will soon be out and IL2 will no longer matter.

This issue will no doubt be fixed by other means anyway.

I agree 100%

IL2 is still in development and the new title will take a very long time to top it

because nowadays IL2 has come in the user's hands and no nomenclature is in

position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting

simulation.

No worries

[JoeA]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_Gaga

I agree 100%

IL2 is still in development and the new title will take a very long time to top it

because nowadays IL2 has come in the user's hands and no nomenclature is in

position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting

simulation.

No worries

You kidding?

"in user's hands and no nomenclature is in position to hold it back or reverse the process of it becoming a fair and exciting simulation."

It wasn't exciting before? Fair is NOT realistic btw, most users just want to substitute "Oleg's world" for their "fantasy but it's mine so it's right world" nonsense.