Future of simulations 2010 discussion

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Oleg: I would say everything anyway! And when we give more and more, making 3D more and more close to a realistic image they never stop their complaints. Comments like, “This screw is not on the right place or this curl of the cloud doesn’t look good”. At the same time a few users would like too much realistic control of aircraft using all the devices like in real life. These are in minority. So there always should be the right calculated balance between realism and usability for a casual player, or we will be not able to sell the new product well and cover our expenses

One thing I don't understand is that why should realism of say flight controls and usability / gameplay be mutually exclusive. Just tone them difficulty settings up and down. I do agree that for example realistic startup procedure or very complex engine management is not everyone. A casual gamer which creates majority of the gaming audience wants his point & shoot experience with quick rewards, but the simming crowd should not be underestimated either. They're (we're I guess =) willing to invest hundreds of dollars into their hobby and I as one love the details and the idea that the flight procedures and experience is as close to the real thing as possible without actually sitting in a warbird. (Ok, you can downsize oil temp rising etc =)

The closer SOW gets to realism the more customers it will extract from the dying(?) FSX scene. It's a resource question ofcourse, dev team can't do everything and get the game released in 2011 but underestimating the potential of customers who are ready to pay ~50$ for a single high-quality plane like A2A's accu sim packages can be a mistake too. But I hope Oleg has created an engine that's open and complex enough for 3rd parties to create whatever level of detail they see fit.

I'm looking forwards going through a thinck manual, monitoring million cauges and clicking billion buttons on my bomber flight in SOW!

[nearmiss]

The one thing computers do well - redundant tasks

Why would anyone want to go through complex engine start procedures everytime they fired up the SOW? Why would anyone want all the inflight complex features, because if full real is addressed it wouldn't be as nice as people perceive. By that I mean weather, wind, fuel, magnetos, etc. and dozens of other management items would be required.

Maybe for fun I might like a complex start procedure like you can do in Falcon 4.0. Then again, most everyone doing Falcon puts the startup on a programmable switch and pushes 1 button to go through maze of startup procedures<> LOL

If Oleg wants to give us all the complexity of real aviation I say go for it.
However, just give me switches to turn it off or tune it down. Many times when only I have 30 minutes or so to enjoy the sim. No way I'm going to sit at the keyboard and flip switches, wait for responses and flip more switches. Sorry, but that would lose my interest faster than watching wet paint dry.

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

However, just give me switches to turn it off or tune it down. Many times when only I have 30 minutes or so to enjoy the sim. No way I'm going to sit at the keyboard and flip switches, wait for responses and flip more switches. Sorry, but that would lose my interest faster than watching wet paint dry.

If you don't want it you tune it down. You want your 30 minutes fix, go for it. But as already seen even on this forum you're not representing the entire simming genre. There is a fan base and a genre of it's own of aviation enthusiasts who like to keep it real and to create maximum potential for the engine that should not be overlooked even if that's not for your casual gaming needs. This genre hasn't had it's fix of state-of-the-art WW2 air war experience for the switch clickers and I'm smelling potential.

Atleast I'd throw money at at.. where do I pay?

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by whatnot

If you don't want it you tune it down. You want your 30 minutes fix, go for it. But as already seen even on this forum you're not representing the entire simming genre. There is a fan base and a genre of it's own of aviation enthusiasts who like to keep it real and to create maximum potential for the engine that should not be overlooked even if that's not for your casual gaming needs. This genre hasn't had it's fix of state-of-the-art WW2 air war experience for the switch clickers and I'm smelling potential.

Atleast I'd throw money at at.. where do I pay?

The troubling part to me, if I were the developer.

Creating all the array of switching and responding with the application for all the different aircraft that will eventually be in the BOB SOW.

You can get some idea by reviewing all the aircraft in IL2.

Then you have to remember. The full real switching and responses are all a little different between aircraft models of the same basic aircraft. I mean if you really want to get full real.

The payloads (weapons loadouts) vary greatly between aircraft models and that would make loadout choices a nightmare, if Oleg didn't fix the payloads for each aircraft.

Then another biggy. We gotta have the AI doing all the switching as well or it just won't be fair. Oh, and the AI has to be programmed into the application to do switching in the myriad of possible circumstances necessary for full real.

It makes you realize why air combat pilots spend all their time in one aircraft, training on the one aircraft and becoming thoroughly familiar with the one aircraft. Back to training, if you moved from the BF109 to FW190.

I see it like this. I trust Oleg to give us the best of the situation, and hope he isn't cajoled into doing stuff that will just bog us down.

The full real guys with this inordinate twinge to dot all the i's and cross all the t's... well they need to go take "real world" flying lessons to satisfy their penchant for realism. They'd get a good taste of that in any 'full real" aircraft. Especially, if they are in a real plane and fail to switch fuel tanks in time. LOL

[whatnot]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The troubling part to me, if I were the developer.

Well they somehow managed to create quite a few very detailed 3rd party planes in FSX for example. And that isn't really a marvel of software engineering when it comes to the game engine far as I've understood.

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The full real guys with this inordinate twinge to dot all the i's and cross all the t's... well they need to go take "real world" flying lessons to satisfy their penchant for realism. They'd get a good taste of that in any 'full real" aircraft. Especially, if they are in a real plane and fail to switch fuel tanks in time. LOL

The problem is that the authorities will give me hard time when I start strafing and bombing the airfields of my beloved neighbours. Also getting my missus 'ok' a loan for a Spitfire will be tough!

[ElAurens]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

The troubling part to me, if I were the developer.

Creating all the array of switching and responding with the application for all the different aircraft that will eventually be in the BOB SOW.

You can get some idea by reviewing all the aircraft in IL2.

Then you have to remember. The full real switching and responses are all a little different between aircraft models of the same basic aircraft. I mean if you really want to get full real.

The payloads (weapons loadouts) vary greatly between aircraft models and that would make loadout choices a nightmare, if Oleg didn't fix the payloads for each aircraft.

Then another biggy. We gotta have the AI doing all the switching as well or it just won't be fair. Oh, and the AI has to be programmed into the application to do switching in the myriad of possible circumstances necessary for full real.

It makes you realize why air combat pilots spend all their time in one aircraft, training on the one aircraft and becoming thoroughly familiar with the one aircraft. Back to training, if you moved from the BF109 to FW190.

I see it like this. I trust Oleg to give us the best of the situation, and hope he isn't cajoled into doing stuff that will just bog us down.

The full real guys with this inordinate twinge to dot all the i's and cross all the t's... well they need to go take "real world" flying lessons to satisfy their penchant for realism. They'd get a good taste of that in any 'full real" aircraft. Especially, if they are in a real plane and fail to switch fuel tanks in time. LOL

I have to agree 100% with you nearmiss.

And one thing the "total full real" proceedures folks keep forgetting is that having all that realism precludes having more than one or two flyable aircraft in the sim. So you end up with a "study sim" like DCS Blackshark or A-10. Technically interesting in concept, but frankly, boring. No online wars, no "Spits vs. 109s" or "War Clouds" type servers, no mutliplayer at all for that matter.

Folks simply are not thinking this through.

OH, and robtek, the manual prop of the 109 E3 should be modeled in SoW, some of the mods already do this. It's all that fiddling with the startup procedure, and large volume of extra programmiing and 3D work that isn't necessary at all.


In flight controls, no issue. 15 to 30 minute startup/warmup regimen? Sorry, not necessary and will adversely limit sales of the sim.

As I said before, Oleg understands that this is a business and sales numbers equal success and further additions to the franchise.

[JAMF]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

I have to agree 100% with you nearmiss.

And one thing the "total full real" proceedures folks keep forgetting is that having all that realism precludes having more than one or two flyable aircraft in the sim. So you end up with a "study sim" like DCS Blackshark or A-10. Technically interesting in concept, but frankly, boring. No online wars, no "Spits vs. 109s" or "War Clouds" type servers, no mutliplayer at all for that matter.

Folks simply are not thinking this through.

Please don't assume you know what people think, know or forget.

I'm a proponent of real procedures, but requesting something is not akin to demanding. If I were to order my wishes for a flight sim, real procedures would probably not be in the top 10. And real start-up procedures is following a flow chart and ticking the right boxes.

Start-up procedure would rate higher in my list than clickable cockpit. As far as I can imagine, a start-up procedure would be less complex than creating a clickable cockpit... for one aircraft. If clickable cockpit is a portion of the engine, I can imagine it being complex to implement in the engine, but simple thereafter for each aircraft. Still, I feel a clickable cockpit more of a gimmick than start-up procedures. In simulating a day in a virtual pilot's war, I would use a start-up procedure offline every time, online as often as possible. In the same situation, clickable cockpit maybe twice per aircraft offline and never online.

All the above is IMHO.

Regarding requests and questions being repeated, without a definite "No" or "no development resources" from Mr. Maddox or other team members, one can expect these to be repeated from time to time.

[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

And one thing the "total full real" proceedures folks keep forgetting is that having all that realism precludes having more than one or two flyable aircraft in the sim. So you end up with a "study sim" like DCS Blackshark or A-10. Technically interesting in concept, but frankly, boring. No online wars, no "Spits vs. 109s" or "War Clouds" type servers, no mutliplayer at all for that.

Someone should call ED, it's not too late yet to cancel DCS:A-10 now that it's been shown to be boring and has no multiplayer; ElAurens has spoken... I guess all sim developers should follow the Rise of Flight approach and concentrate on Air Quake, seems to work fine for them...

That SimHQ article actually paints a rather grim picture of the current state of flight sim development by most of the remaining few developers who are still working in this area. Somewhat ironic that the main reaction here is for people to bring up their personal wishlist again.

SoW's detail level in systems modeling and startup procedures has long been explained by Oleg anyway, and his decision should be understandable no matter where you stand on this issue. Not sure why some still have to drag out the classic "if you want realism go and fly a real airplane" non-argument in this context.

[Wolf_Rider]

I always wondered what those DCS multiplayer icons were which appeared at install, or the servers listed when I clicked on them.

hmm, oh well, if DCS has no multiplayer, that's that then

[PE_Tigar]

Originally Posted by The Kraken

Someone should call ED, it's not too late yet to cancel DCS:A-10 now that it's been shown to be boring and has no multiplayer; ElAurens has spoken... I guess all sim developers should follow the Rise of Flight approach and concentrate on Air Quake, seems to work fine for them..

I guess you're not 100% right on RoF being "air quake" - I find its FM, DM and "systems" modelling quite accurate - for primitive machines they model, that is. Now, to put that into perspective, A-10C, itself being a rather non-complicated airplane, if you discount the "bolt-on" systems added in A to C transition, is still many times more complicated that a WWI airplane. For WWII airplanes, though, there is a huge variety, starting with quite primitive machines, like Gladiator for example or Tiger Moth, and ending with F4U and similar.

But the most important thing for me is not accurate modelling of the switches you use once and forget (famously - magnetos in Il-2 - why do I need to switch them off and on, if there's no magneto failure option?) but the accurate modelling of the features really important in real airplanes - which are BTW inexplicably absent in Il-2. A good example for this is the fuel tank selector, or the fuel shutoff. If it's hard to model the fuel consumption from different tanks, than please at least let me shut off the fuel flow to a burning engine. It could've saved my virtual butt many times...

Again, the flight sim, and a combat flight sim in particular, is a very complex mechanism. With that in mind, the all new features we'll see in SOW, especially in environment modelling, will give us a huge immersion boost - be sure . The sims of tomorrow will need to follow the path of simulating the environment more accurately, and the interaction of the aircraft and the environment needs to be improved. For combat flight sims, a persistent, dynamic, war-like environment, with "jump-in - jump-out" features and a living, breathing world around it would be a "holy grail". For example, if we're modelling BoB, we could have a server (or a bunch of them) running the whole thing, according to the historical ORBAT, operations, weather etc., and offer pilots missions dynamically, which they could jump into and out of (with limitations, like no jumping out of the mission in combat, etc.). That wouldn't preclude the existence of some kind of more limited "offline training module" - but the main action would be online. I, for once, would pay a monthly fee for such an experience, and I'd gladly pay for any additional aircraft usable in such an environment.