Surprising quality gun camera footage from japanese theatre.

[winny]

Originally Posted by moilami

Hmm, how is sniping different? In air combat one of your missions is to eliminate the enemy. In sniping your mission is to eliminate the enemy. If we would go to different operations we would go for example to snipers in police. By then we could say sniping is different. However even by then the sniper would have to shoot mercilessly, possibly risking innocent people.

I don't say what pilots in WW2 thought about what is their job. I spoke about what people think was the job of the WW2 pilots. And I have seen many think something like air combat would had been some sort of glorified game with some sort of rules (moral code) which makes the difference between "us" and "them" e.g. good and evil.

So, if people begin to talk about ethics in air combat (is chute shooting right or wrong) and if they don't see enough to talk about it, I may have a word to say.

Shortly said there was a war going on, and in war you have certain responsibilities. Like protect your people and defeat the enemy. The faster and more effective you are in your responsibilities, the better. Now imagine a war where Knighs of the Sky are playing a game while the rest are burning and torn by explosions and gunfire. How much does that make sense? Are pilots privileged to only shoot "planes" down and not people? Or if they only shoot planes down does it make them better pilots (especially when they don't shoot chutes down because of the fear of getting the same fate from enemy)?

I know what people think with that glorified Knights of the Sky illusion. However that is sandbox war. Real war is not sandbox war. Now don't drink coffee. You have been warned. I will turn things upside down from what you have used to believe and I don't want you burst coffee on your keyboard and monitor.

Those who shooted chutes made the real sacrifice. They stopped playing a wargame and begun to do their best to eliminate the enemy. In the process they sacrificed their humanity, their principles of not shooting helpless, their respect as seen by enemy and comrades (honour stuff), and their safety of not getting shooted at in a chute by themselves. They sacrificed possibly everything we can imagine to stop the war and minimize casualties. They had the choise, and they made the sacrifice.

Such is war. Total madness. And it is best to see as it is.

A sniper is trained to kill someone. A fighter pilot is trained to shoot down planes the death of the pilot is secondary. I can't put it any simpler than that

A sniper is a trained killer, Infantry is totally different.
You also compared it to Area bombing whhich is also different.
Bomber pilots were hitting targets and the civillian casualties were secondary. Snipers target is a human being and usually military and is his primary target. It dosn't matter how you kill someone as it is always wrong, justified sometimes but always wrong.

If you want to compare Area bombing to something compare it to the use of Artillery on a City as they have similar objectives. Snipers and fighter pilots do not.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by winny

A sniper is trained to kill someone. A fighter pilot is trained to shoot down planes the death of the pilot is secondary. I can't put it any simpler than that

Ah...but how about fighter pilots who strafe ground troops? I mean is shooting down enemy planes the only thing a figther pilot is trained to do? What about his role and duty as just one soldier in the war machine? Or does fighter pilots have some privileges?

Why it is okay for a sniper to make headshots on helpless enemy but if a fighter pilot does the same on a chute pilot it is suddenly oh so wrong ? Is it really because of what sniper has been trained to do and what fighter pilot has been trained to do?

[Sven]

Originally Posted by moilami

Ah...but how about fighter pilots who strafe ground troops? I mean is shooting down enemy planes the only thing a figther pilot is trained to do? What about his role and duty as just one soldier in the war machine? Or does fighter pilots have some privileges?

Why it is okay for a sniper to make headshots on helpless enemy but if a fighter pilot does the same on a chute pilot it is suddenly oh so wrong ? Is it really because of what sniper has been trained to do and what fighter pilot has been trained to do?

Always a difficult subject, the not shooting of shutes is just common accepted among pilots and therefore will mostly not fire upon them, I'm just glad that there is such a thing, less people killed.

Unfortunately there is no such thing in the sniper role, otherwise the sniper role would be pretty useless wouldn't it? Just my opinion, sometimes things are just the way they are.

Sven

[winny]

Originally Posted by moilami

Ah...but how about fighter pilots who strafe ground troops? I mean is shooting down enemy planes the only thing a figther pilot is trained to do? What about his role and duty as just one soldier in the war machine? Or does fighter pilots have some privileges?

Why it is okay for a sniper to make headshots on helpless enemy but if a fighter pilot does the same on a chute pilot it is suddenly oh so wrong ? Is it really because of what sniper has been trained to do and what fighter pilot has been trained to do?

You didn't read what I said. Both are wrong. And I'm not the one comparing them, you are, and it's not a fair comparison. It's about justification, and personal choice.

If you are just comparing any type of killing with any other type of killing then what's the point? It's ALL wrong..

[moilami]

Originally Posted by winny

You didn't read what I said. Both are wrong. And I'm not the one comparing them, you are, and it's not a fair comparison. It's about justification, and personal choice.

If you are just comparing any type of killing with any other type of killing then what's the point? It's ALL wrong..

So you say that snipers doing headshots on helpless soldiers and chute shooting are both wrong. You also say that all killing is wrong. But what if there is no choise? What if a sniper gets a chance to do a headshot on terrorist who takes just a few steps too much away of the bomb trigger which could kill 100 hostages? At times merciless killing is needed, we can agree on that?

Now the disagreement part is that for some reason I can't understand why fighter pilots enjoy of the privilege to just shoot planes down. No need to do anything else, actually if you do more you are frowned because it would so much suck to be the chute pilot shot down. And who the hell would shoot helpless victims! Or bomb civilians! We have some moral standards!! Imagine for example artillery dudes, what bastards! We fighter pilots are not coward bastards, we don't shoot chutes because we could get shot! And we have been trained to only shoot planes! We are Knights of the Sky. We let the chute pilot live so we could live - and could not care less what happen on the ground!! This be our sandbox! If you get bombed by chute pilots we did not shoot down, we don't care! It is freaking our honour and sandbox war vs ur life. Get a clue which matters more.

There is so many so ridiculous contradictions and double standards I can't think anything else having so many so ridiculous contradictions. Not even in war.

[winny]

Originally Posted by moilami

So you say that snipers doing headshots on helpless soldiers and chute shooting are both wrong. You also say that all killing is wrong. But what if there is no choise? What if a sniper gets a chance to do a headshot on terrorist who takes just a few steps too much away of the bomb trigger which could kill 100 hostages? At times merciless killing is needed, we can agree on that?

Now the disagreement part is that for some reason I can't understand why fighter pilots enjoy of the privilege to just shoot planes down. No need to do anything else, actually if you do more you are frowned because it would so much suck to be the chute pilot shot down. And who the hell would shoot helpless victims! Or bomb civilians! We have some moral standards!! Imagine for example artillery dudes, what bastards! We fighter pilots are not coward bastards, we don't shoot chutes because we could get shot! And we have been trained to only shoot planes! We are Knights of the Sky. We let the chute pilot live so we could live - and could not care less what happen on the ground!! This be our sandbox! If you get bombed by chute pilots we did not shoot down, we don't care! It is freaking our honour and sandbox war vs ur life. Get a clue which matters more.

There is so many so ridiculous contradictions and double standards I can't think anything else having so many so ridiculous contradictions. Not even in war.

Jeez.. you are hard work. Even if killing someone is justified it is still wrong.


I can't even tell what your point is.
Are you saying that killing pilots in thier 'chutes is right? Or Justified.
And again it comes down to what the individual choses to do at that specific moment.

For the record if I don't think that shooting pilots in thier parachutes is a good thing to do. Other people did, and did so.
Stop trying to lump it all together in one moral lump because you can't. Your argument seems to contradict itself because it's an impossible argument. You can only really say if you agree or disagree, comparisons of one murder against another are pointless.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by winny

I can't even tell what your point is.
Are you saying that killing pilots in thier 'chutes is right? Or Justified.
And again it comes down to what the individual choses to do at that specific moment.

My point is as I wrote it:

Those who shooted chutes made the real sacrifice. They stopped playing a wargame and begun to do their best to eliminate the enemy. In the process they sacrificed their humanity, their principles of not shooting helpless, their respect as seen by enemy and comrades (honour stuff), and their safety of not getting shooted at in a chute by themselves. They sacrificed possibly everything we can imagine to stop the war and minimize casualties. They had the choise, and they made the sacrifice.

There is no words about right or wrong, good or bad, or anything like that. It was all about unseen sacrifice some pilots did, and which makes a very good example what kind of madness the war was in real even though it can be looked with rose coloured eye shades.


Edit: They gave everything, not just risking their lives and health. And Knights of the Sky just call them "scum". Oh well, but I know that is difficult to understand. There has been times when people could not understand how a black man could possibly use same toilet as white man. So anything is possible.

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by moilami

My point is as I wrote it:

Those who shooted chutes made the real sacrifice. They stopped playing a wargame and begun to do their best to eliminate the enemy. In the process they sacrificed their humanity, their principles of not shooting helpless, their respect as seen by enemy and comrades (honour stuff), and their safety of not getting shooted at in a chute by themselves. They sacrificed possibly everything we can imagine to stop the war and minimize casualties. They had the choise, and they made the sacrifice.

There is no words about right or wrong, good or bad, or anything like that. It was all about unseen sacrifice some pilots did, and which makes a very good example what kind of madness the war was in real even though it can be looked with rose coloured eye shades.

What sacrifice did those that shoot chutes make? That sounds like a murderer makes also a sacrifice. I differ between stopping someone from fighting on and killing him out right. You make it sound like a butcher is someone doing something honourable........can it be you have just been playing too many shooter games? Your line of thought is just a step away from saying well to stop the enemy one must also prevent new soldiers from coming, so kill also any civilian in sight as that is a potential new soldier or could raise one....... I think you would have a hard time in the military, only a gamer talks like that.

[Triggaaar]

Originally Posted by winny

Jeez.. you are hard work. Even if killing someone is justified it is still wrong.

This is your opinion and I respect that, but it is not a fact. I'm not actually sure what you mean by the word 'wrong' when you say something is justified. It doesn't matter, we are allowed to disagree.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Triggaaar

This is your opinion and I respect that, but it is not a fact. I'm not actually sure what you mean by the word 'wrong' when you say something is justified. It doesn't matter, we are allowed to disagree.

So you say killing is right. I disagree but realise that sometimes it has to be done. I would never say killing is right (as in right and wrong).

Wrong? you don't know what wrong means...? Now you're just arguing about words. Pointless again.