Surprising quality gun camera footage from japanese theatre.

[MD_Titus]

Originally Posted by Splitter

First, I do not see the guy being shot up in his chute. Were there tracers I missed? (I make no point with that, I am just asking if others see the tracers)

Second, yes war has become more "sanitized" for some countries. One reason is that civilian populations back home will not tolerate the wanton killing of other civilians. Another is that weapons are more precise and it is much more efficient to take out one target with one bomb in most cases. And finally, most people do not want to kill civilians when it can be avoided, most people are basically "good".

If modern armies targeted civilians with the technology available, there would be infinitely more dead civilians than we see.

Back to shooting someone up in their chute: I think most would agree that not only is it immoral, it is a really bad idea. If the enemy sees their people shot up in their chutes, they are likely to retaliate in kind. As a pilot, you are probably going to be flying against those same enemies in the very near future.

I would not want anyone on my side starting such a practice. So if there were tracers in the OP, was the "victim" receiving payback for shooting at chutes himself? I guess we'll never know.

Splitter

if this is the footage i think it was then yeah, camera only pass. there was no firing at the guy on the chute, but way to go getting the vid removed wutz.

during the bob there were plenty of people who were surprised the germans did not, as a matter of routine, fire on bailed out pilots - they would be back in the air if uninjured. it would have been entirely logical to ensure that combatants are out of the fight for good, especially if bailing over their own territory. there were occasions where bailed out pilots of both sides were found riddled with bullets, and sometimes that may have been deliberate. there are accounts of those from occupied countries having a very tangible sense of vengence, and deliberately targetting bailed out luftwaffe pilots.

but yes, generally i believe the idea of "what i do may be done unto me" prevented it.

[minvid]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...my-iraq-attack

War follows no rules. It is a matter of fear and terror, and of silly people with guns in their hands.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by minvid

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...my-iraq-attack

War follows no rules. It is a matter of fear and terror, and of silly people with guns in their hands.

ROFL, more anti-American hatred? I've seen that video several times. It certainly looked like the camera man was armed, that camera looked like a weapon. Then he crouches and looks around the corner with what looks like the front of an RPG.

Mistake? Maybe. Hanging around with other armed people, possibly insurgents, to get a story is bound to be dangerous. That was a good shoot.

Notice that the helicopter kept moving the entire time. Why? RPG's, anti aircraft missiles, and small arms fire. They were obviously in a potentially "hot" situation.

Hind sight is always 20/20.

Did you know that Navy Seals were brought up on charges because a terrorist, Ahmed Hashim Abed, claimed they punched him when capturing him? Thankfully, they beat the charges and Abed walked away (ok, into custody) with a bloody lip.

Now, compare a country bringing soldiers up on charges for maybe punching a terrorist against...oh...I dunno...beheading someone on camera.

Who are the bad guys again?

Sorry, I am tired of the "warmongering, hateful, murderous Americans" stuff. If the US wanted to kill civilians, there would be few left at this point. Mistakes happen. Individuals may commit crimes. But the US military goes out of its' way to minimize collateral damage, often putting its' own troops in harm's way to do so.

Splitter

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Splitter

ROFL, more anti-American hatred? I've seen that video several times. It certainly looked like the camera man was armed, that camera looked like a weapon. Then he crouches and looks around the corner with what looks like the front of an RPG.

Mistake? Maybe. Hanging around with other armed people, possibly insurgents, to get a story is bound to be dangerous. That was a good shoot.

Notice that the helicopter kept moving the entire time. Why? RPG's, anti aircraft missiles, and small arms fire. They were obviously in a potentially "hot" situation.

Hind sight is always 20/20.

Did you know that Navy Seals were brought up on charges because a terrorist, Ahmed Hashim Abed, claimed they punched him when capturing him? Thankfully, they beat the charges and Abed walked away (ok, into custody) with a bloody lip.

Now, compare a country bringing soldiers up on charges for maybe punching a terrorist against...oh...I dunno...beheading someone on camera.

Who are the bad guys again?

Sorry, I am tired of the "warmongering, hateful, murderous Americans" stuff. If the US wanted to kill civilians, there would be few left at this point. Mistakes happen. Individuals may commit crimes. But the US military goes out of its' way to minimize collateral damage, often putting its' own troops in harm's way to do so.

Splitter

I've come to understand that it avails little to explain anything to such individuals, mate. Comparison and reason means little to them, so long as they spout the "party line". Whoever does not agree is evil, and there is no other option. That their own way of life might be in danger means little to them as they have long ago given over individual thought to "collective thought". The simple fact is that "we" must not only fight for ourselves but for "them", as the two are one in the same. It's not fair, but it's the fact.

[julian265]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Sorry, I am tired of the "warmongering, hateful, murderous Americans" stuff. If the US wanted to kill civilians, there would be few left at this point. Mistakes happen. Individuals may commit crimes. But the US military goes out of its' way to minimize collateral damage, often putting its' own troops in harm's way to do so.

You might be tired of the sentiment, but there sure are a lot of civilians tired of the conditions (loss of infrastructure) and death brought by an occupying force.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by julian265

You might be tired of the sentiment, but there sure are a lot of civilians tired of the conditions (loss of infrastructure) and death brought by an occupying force.

Yeah, they were much better off before. You could tell by the way they sulked Saddam's statue was torn down....

They would be much better off if we built them schools and hospitals....oh wait....

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Yeah, they were much better off before. You could tell by the way they sulked Saddam's statue was torn down....

Splitter

Bad example. The US admitted eventually the whole thing was staged as a PR/spin event and they rounded up a bunch of civilians and got them to pull it down once the cameras were ready to roll.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyn8Kb_do8g

Also the main guy that climbed the statue embarrassed the US a few years later by saying he regretted it and the US occupation was actually worse than Saddam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRtj82fR4N0

You need to pick better examples

[Splitter]

Dangit, Galway, I was purposfully leaving that opening. Now you ruined it . My plans foiled again! lol

Splitter

[julian265]

Most interviews with Iraqis that I've watched show that they don't think they're better off. You may believe otherwise, and I'm not going to argue with you about it because it can't be proven one way or the other without touring the place...

Either way, many civilians have suffered because a 3rd party decided to impose its will on the country. It will take years for enough stability to return, to allow what I would regard as a healthily functioning government. Assuming of course that the right people emerge from the chaos, to govern.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by julian265

Most interviews with Iraqis that I've watched show that they don't think they're better off. You may believe otherwise, and I'm not going to argue with you about it because it can't be proven one way or the other without touring the place...

Either way, many civilians have suffered because a 3rd party decided to impose its will on the country. It will take years for enough stability to return, to allow what I would regard as a healthily functioning government. Assuming of course that the right people emerge from the chaos, to govern.

I dunno, Julian, from everything I have heard it seems they want troops to leave....but not yet. They are afraid of the Iranians, afraid of chaos between their own groups, etc.. It seems also that they feel more secure these days.

I recently read an article that quoted a former US enemy in Iraq who said the US has made mistakes, but at least they weren't breaking into homes and chopping off heads. The rebuilding of Iraq is the largest such undertaking since the Marshal Plan.

This whole thing went off topic because someone asserted, by a misrepresented video, that there were no rules and no morality in war. They used a very graphic video from US forces to prove their point. Their underlying point was obviously that US forces are out to kill civilians or went into engagements without any thought given to civilian casualties. In fact, the video actually showed rules of engagement being followed.

I am reminded of a video of a Japanese pilot (or survivor from a ship) blowing himself up with a grenade as a US ship pulled along side to pick him up. Of course, this WWII video is usually misrepresented as US sailors shooting a poor guy lost at sea. It's sickening.

The disdain, the outright prejudice against the US is tangible sometimes. It gets old and far too often, the silence of others is deafening.

Splitter