Daidalos Team's Room -QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS ONLY on IL2 Authorized Addons

[II/JG54_Emil]

Bug-List:

- many (often in game used weapons) don´t use historical values
- MK108 has less destructiveness than in RL(4 hit to down a B-17) in the weapons classes and in empirical testing (check Flying Guns of WW2, Anthony G. Williams / http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_108_cannon)
- MG151/20mm s.o., (5hits to down a fighter 25 hits to down a B-17 (check Flying Guns of WW2, Anthony G. Williams / http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk / http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MG_151_cannon)
- .50 cal Browning s.o.
- FAB bombs destruction radii are a lot higher in late game patches than i the first game releases without referencing how and why
(an interesting point here is that the first game-release had the MG151/20mm weapon-classes closer to RL than they are now)
- some Russian rear-gunners have 0 dispersion on mobile mounted gun
- La series uses later engines than available at the period
- I-185 71A the spawn temperature is beginning at 110°C and when heating up and when running up the engine the temperature runs down to 20°C and stays there.
NO OVERHEAT!
- Bf-110 G2 the ATA pressure is with 73% throttle indicating your are in the war-emergency-power.
- some of the Instruments put into German planes were not available at the time the plane was produced
- Bf-109 uses a ridiculous climb-rate that is one third bigger than in RL
- FW have too low acceleration at low speeds

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

Originally Posted by Viikate

Do we really need be here on standby hitting F5 constantly in case Hades has posted something demanding for answers? I already answered to Hades that he is wrong about the maxDeltaAngle causing the sniper effect, but he refused to acccept this.

I did not refuse anything. I also stated 2 Different things that:
A) The ShVAK 20 mm cannot has ZERO dispersion value when it mounts Defensive Flexible Installations, and this is WRONG! It makes this weapon to behave like a Sniper gun! What did you Not understand?

B) I also stated that the "angle error" also plays Significant role in the Sniper effect, and i told you to Change this to a large value and you won't get EVER hit by a Defensive Gunner even if he is an "ACE:. What, again, you did not understand?
I stated this because many guns have too small dispersion values, they are even more accurate than they are when the fire from Fixed positions like wings or propelor-hubs.
Can you deny this also? I can write data for this in no time

Originally Posted by Viikate

Not my problem if Hades cannot analyse the code enough to find the real problem. Using same logic as Hades, I could equally say that if I set the ammo count to zero, the problem is fixed. So "the ammo count ALSO plays significant role in this aspect."

If i understand correctly, i have said something like this to Justify the NEED to CHANGE the WRONG sniper-values for Flecible Defensive Cannon Installations. I hope i am clear.

Originally Posted by Viikate

Wrong cockpits? Did I miss something?

Overheating issues maybe? Wrong indications from instruments maybe?

Originally Posted by Viikate

For 4.09 TD proposed to MG that 15kg might be more better value for a generic pylon weight and it would solve the overweight problem of planes with lots of small pylons (8 rockets for example). Not that this was very relevant fix, since we planned already back then to set all individual pylon weights.

Do you really think that there is actual data that states that generic weight for all pylons is 15kg. It's simple approximation based of the fact that most of the pylons are simple rocket rails or small wing bomb racks.

So you Confirm that you do "approximations" already, not backed-up by any Real Data. But when i talked about "approximations" based on game's data for Same weight, family, caliber, for weapons and/or bombs you got Screamed about "Reliable data".
Thank you Viikate for confirming that you also do approximations, be that good or bad. When you do it, its good, but IF someone else do it, then "it/he is bad".

Originally Posted by Viikate

Well would you change something like the MK 108 power value just because someone states that:

"While historically 4 shots were needed to down a B-17.
In game you need around 10."

There are numerus Pilot reports from WWII and documantaries stating this.
Yest you deny this. Perhaps we should just do an "approximation".
Maybe you are right.

Originally Posted by Viikate

So the problem is with the MK 108 and not with the B-17 DM? If we would just blindly change the MK 108, it could have very dramatic effect when shooting small fighters.

We are being testing all the game's guns for a long time, close to year and came up that "if" you put real life data then you need around 1-2 30mm hits from close range to shot down a fighter. It complies Perfectly with WWII war reports, pilots accounts and documentaries.

Originally Posted by Viikate

BTW Emil. Are you 100% sure that the power variable in MK 108 round is the full weight of explosive content.

It is. You say it is not the HE content? Interesting. Then, what is it then?
OR you are saying that other values play importand role in this, which is of course true.

Originally Posted by Viikate

When you view the decompiled code, you only see the final value of 42 grams. In the original source code the final value comes from formula or several values, just like the caliber (which has nothing to do with actual caliber).

True, it is what i wrote just above. That "many values are responsible for weapon's destructiveness".
So, where are the news about this?

Originally Posted by Viikate

So far this thread has provided ZERO real credible reference about any bomb blast radius. No real credible hard data, no change.

Please, could you just show me CREDIBLE data that makes the 2001 data for the Bombs to be False while to justify the current data as correct? Please?

Originally Posted by Viikate

TD gets huge amount of e-mails from people asking to change this and that. Most of them are asking us to change something that would have really big effects in game without ANY real references. Just like this thread lately.

I have talked for Very Specific Things and Very Specific game data.
I doubt that you had any kind of request like this.

Originally Posted by Viikate

Mods have a luxury of begin uninstallable (plus there are also many mods that restore the original FM or original weapon parameters). Any change in the patch is something that is permanent for the players who don't use mods. So we don't change something very lightly just because some guy comes here to say that he has decompiled the source code and knows that wrong variable X is causing problem Y.

~4 times bigger the blast for certain bombs and almost twise the destruction of certain guns, Zero weight Pylons, Never Overheating Issues, etc are something "very light"?

Ok, i understand now your logic.
Keep up the good work.

[Viikate]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

So you Confirm that you do "approximations" already, not backed-up by any Real Data. But when i talked about "approximations" based on game's data for Same weight, family, caliber, for weapons and/or bombs you got Screamed about "Reliable data".
Thank you Viikate for confirming that you also do approximations, be that good or bad. When you do it, its good, but IF someone else do it, then "it/he is bad".

I guess you still don't understand that there is no correct answer for the pylon weight if it is one single values for ALL pylons (except those few mentioned before). Therefore it is approximation.

This is same as trying to find a value that is a result of every possible calculation that the current math knows. So was 150kg more correct value for the average rocket rail/bomb rack than 15kg. This change was bad in your opinion? It should have been heavier than 150kg so you have more to whine about?

[Viikate]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

I did not refuse anything. I also stated 2 Different things that:
A) The ShVAK 20 mm cannot has ZERO dispersion value when it mounts Defensive Flexible Installations, and this is WRONG! It makes this weapon to behave like a Sniper gun! What did you Not understand?

I do understand this perfectly but the problem here is that this is the ONLY thing you understand about the problem. And it is completely wrong way to solve it.

I'm willing to remove any changes we did to encounter the "sniper issue" and replace them with your large dispersion values that "fixes the problem". But I guess we need to write in readme that "Sorry about the gunners. We know that they cannot hit anything now, but this had to be done because Hades said so".

So please tell me those large dispersion values that fixes the problem.

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

Originally Posted by Viikate

I do understand this perfectly but the problem here is that this is the ONLY thing you understand about the problem. And it is completely wrong way to solve it.

WHO said that this is the ONLY issue about the Sniper gunners? Please DO read again what i posted.

Originally Posted by Viikate

I'm willing to remove any changes we did to encounter the "sniper issue" and replace them with your large dispersion values that "fixes the problem".

Yet again, i did not say this. Can't you read? Its not my fault.

Originally Posted by Viikate

But I guess we need to write in readme that "Sorry about the gunners. We know that they cannot hit anything now, but this had to be done because Hades said so".

Nice,
So are you threating me now that "You will remove this feature because of the "evil" HaDeS who posted some really existent issues"? So that community will "hunt down poor HaDeS because we could not answer his questions"?
Nice "mature" way of thinking.
Post more like this Viikate

Originally Posted by Viikate

So please tell me those large dispersion values that fixes the problem.

So do you Deny that Guns in Flexible Gun Installations have Less dispersion value than they used to have when mounted in Wings or in engine cowl?

You Intentionally Mixing 2 Different things, and yet you Threaten me also.

So, i repeat just in case you Understand:

Dispersion value for Guns and the AI Skill regarding Gunners are something Completely Different that affects Different game's classes BUT the Dispersion Value of Guns is Related with their Accuracy either they are Manned by AI, Rookie or Humans.

Clear now?
Good

Cheers,

[II/JG54_Emil]

Originally Posted by Viikate

Wrong cockpits? Did I miss something?

Late war instruments put into early war planes(found for German side, haven´t checked for any other planes)

F

or 4.09 TD proposed to MG that 15kg might be more better value for a generic pylon weight and it would solve the overweight problem of planes with lots of small pylons (8 rockets for example). Not that this was very relevant fix, since we planned already back then to set all individual pylon weights.

Here you use an estimated value that seems credible.
With the FABs you don´t

Do you really think that there is actual data that states that generic weight for all pylons is 15kg. It's simple approximation based of the fact that most of the pylons are simple rocket rails or small wing bomb racks.

I bet it would be hard to find in any book or the internet, I guess.
But one could do an active search and send emails to Flugwerk in Germany and others.

Well would you change something like the MK 108 power value just because someone states that:

"While historically 4 shots were needed to down a B-17.
In game you need around 10."

The weapon was developed as a private venture by the company in 1940 and was submitted to the Reichsluftfahrtministerium (RLM—Reich Aviation Ministry) in response to a 1942 requirement for a heavy aircraft weapon for use against the Allied bombers appearing en masse in German skies by then. Testing verified that the autocannon was well-suited to this role, requiring on average just four hits with high-explosive ammunition to bring down a heavy bomber such as a B-17 Flying Fortress or B-24 Liberator and a single hit to down a fighter. In comparison, the otherwise excellent 20 mm MG 151/20 required an average of 25 hits to down a B-17.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MK_108_cannon

So the problem is with the MK 108 and not with the B-17 DM? If we would just blindly change the MK 108, it could have very dramatic effect when shooting small fighters.

BTW Emil. Are you 100% sure that the power variable in MK 108 round is the full weight of explosive content. When you view the decompiled code, you only see the final value of 42 grams. In the original source code the final value comes from formula or several values, just like the caliber (which has nothing to do with actual caliber).

I don´t really care a lot what is coded how.
What do care about is the outcome.
Il2 is supposed to be a simulation (I hoped it was), so let´s simulate that a B-17 can be downed with Mk108 4-5 bullet-hits average or 25 MG151/20mm bullet-hits.
I trust in your abilities and your tools.

So far this thread has provided ZERO real credible reference about any bomb blast radius. No real credible hard data, no change. TD gets huge amount of e-mails from people asking to change this and that. Most of them are asking us to change something that would have really big effects in game without ANY real references. Just like this thread lately.

It has proven that the FAB values were changed during the game developement without an referencing.

Mods have a luxury of begin uninstallable (plus there are also many mods that restore the original FM or original weapon parameters). Any change in the patch is something that is permanent for the players who don't use mods. So we don't change something very lightly just because some guy comes here to say that he has decompiled the source code and knows that wrong variable X is causing problem Y.

I don´t expect you to jump on every train passing by.
But I would expect at least some consideration and valid points.

[csThor]

Originally Posted by II/JG54_Emil

Late war instruments put into early war planes(found for German side, haven´t checked for any other planes)

Emil, could you make a list of incorrect instrumentation (planetype + instrument)? That might be helpful for our cockpit 3D gurus.

Originally Posted by II/JG54_Emil

Here you use an estimated value that seems credible.

I hope I'm not putting my foot into my mouth here but the pylons were a special case. When the issue was raised (just prior to 4.09) we didn't yet have the authorization of Maddox Games to continue development so, while we certainly wanted to do it right from the start, we were still in legal limbo and couldn't. Back then our core team didn't have the tools yet, either. But now, as Microwave said, 4.10 will bring individual pylon weights so the issue will be settled.

Originally Posted by II/JG54_Emil

I don´t really care a lot what is coded how.
What do care about is the outcome.
Il2 is supposed to be a simulation (I hoped it was), so let´s simulate that a B-17 can be downed with Mk108 4-5 bullet-hits average or 25 MG151/20mm bullet-hits.
I trust in your abilities and your tools.

General comment: Damage modelling and especially weapon effects are not an exact science. Statements such as "5 hits were enough to down a B-17" should not be understood in absolute terms. Sometimes a single hit may be enough, sometimes ten hits aren't enough. That's Murphy for you ...

[bigbossmalone]

well, my request about the ship padlocking problem seems again to have been brushed aside, yet a request for yet more skins makes the grade for a reply? wow.
sure, there are many beautiful skins out there, and the more the merrier, but is that really a gameplay-critical request, and not yet just more eye-candy?
what i am asking is something tha will be appreciated by many players, especially those less-fortunate ones who do not have the luxury of a head-tracking TrackIR system, or such......a proper useful fix to something that seems to be broken.
it's also not taking sides, as it will be equally useful for blue or red players, i'm sure, lol.
surely, after trying to make this request for over a year now, someone would at least have the courtesy to answer?
i mean, it really only needs to be a one-word reply, such as 'yes, no' or ''maybe, we'll see'......for a group that professes to not have the time to reply to everyone, i don't see how much time it would take for at least a simple acknowledgement of this request, yet there are lengthy 'quote/replies' concerning these other weapon issues....i don't get it.
is no-one interested? and here i thought, as 4.10 is apparently a bit more focussed towards ships/ship battles, it might be a pertinent request...

[JG53Frankyboy]

Originally Posted by csThor

Emil, could you make a list of incorrect instrumentation (planetype + instrument)? That might be helpful for our cockpit 3D gurus.


..................... ...

i mnot Emil and sure you ment something different , but the Speed gauges in the Ki-27, D3A and G4M have all knot scalas but are reading km/h - so, at 300 and 330(Val and Betty) the scala is at its end

[Ltbear]

About bombs. Well some feels abit wrong some feels useless etc.

I have been folowing this debate abit, but in general talking about bombs are talking about different cars. The structure of bombs are a nightmare to follow since they change in some way every 6th month of the war.

German multipurpose bombs was not fragmentet (or many of them was not) The germans used a 5 step fusing instead so the bomb detonatet in 5 stages (5 series fusing)

This in general gave about the same result as a fragmentet bomb.

Again the Germans had SD, SC, PD and AB bombs and in many cases there is versions up to mark III of the same bomb. Each version with some modifications (effect)

With all these bombs, and the limitet versions made ingame you have to do a compremise, you cant have them all (sad actualy but well)

If you look at the games versions of bombs and how they work they are a decent compremise for all these bombs. It could be better, but again, we want it all, but have to patch what we have.

I have only talked about German bombs here, all fighting nations made and used bombs in many many variations, think of the task going through 2000-2500 different bombs and then implement the "fair" changes.

At the end i agree that some bombs feels wierd, especially when you know abit about bombs, but i live with it because i understand the insane ammount of researtch it would take adjusting them. A dummy bomb is actualy not a dummy, its a fairly complicatet device when you look at fusing and structure....A German fragmentation bomb is around as effective (90%) as a American, Russian or other bomb. The problem "tuning" it would be what version should you adjust after, year? Fusing? Mark number?

well enough stupidity from me....

Ltbear