Uniforms and ranks and medals!

[Former_Older]

Fascinating concept

I realize that there are many, many dedicated and knowledgeable simmers and enthusiasts here. However, consider for a moment that there are people whose passion and interest have been uniforms of various military organizations since before flight sims were on PCs; their interest is this specific slice of detail

I know that the search for information will not be limited to this forum, or even to the internet. But when I read this title, I immediately thought of a website I frequent, which deals with US militaria. I realize that this website will not be critical for the development of the first installment of the simulation. But it sprang to mind because of the depth of understanding and knowledge that certain members there have for things like uniforms. Some have been collecting and researching since the 1960s; that's a lot of experience! These are the sort of people that can tell the era that a shoulder or sleeve insignia served in by the way it looks, even if to the casual observer it looks identical to one made decades later- look, they post, this is WWII vintage because of the way the stitching joins the image to the writing here and here, they will say, and maybe add that it was only used after such and such a date. This sort of in-depth knowledge is not unusual among those people

I am sure that there are enthusiasts of this kind who participate in online forums and the like, who specialize in German, British, Italian, Polish, French, etc etc uniforms and dress regulations and practices of the second world war

So members here, if you know of such places, or even yet, if you participate there, I am sure that a wealth of information is literally right at your fingertips

[philip.ed]

Battledress wasn't worn!!!! (unless you count Brian Lane wearing a prototype version...)
They wore their No.1 Service Dress (SD) uniforms.
I'd love to help you out again, Luthier and Oleg, but I am just too busy. If I ever have the time, I'll e-mail Oleg (if his Oleg is still the same as it was around a year ago)
Other forum members are also collectors, and so I'm sure if they have the time and see this, they may be able to help.

Good luck.

[Fenrir]

Hi Luthier,

One quick notice; it was very unusual for RAF fighter pilots to fly in their Sidcot sheepskin jackets: most found them too bulky in the cockpit and on occasion the collar was a downright menace - you'd turn your head to check your 5 or 7 for bandits and find yourself staring straight at close range at a fluffy sheepskin!

Most photographs of the era show the fighter pilots wearing their No.1 Service Dress, no neck tie and top shirt button undone with silk scarf, Mae West and flying boots.

Certainly the odd fighter pilot did festoon himself in said Sidcot but they are the exception rather than the norm. On bombers however, I'd expect it to be a different story.

[philip.ed]

The sidcot suit is not a sheepskin jacket.
The 'Irvin' jacket is the sheepskin one, made by a number of contracts, most notably Irvin.
The Sidcot suit was developed by Frederick Sidney Cotton OBE (17 June 1894 – 13 February 1969) around 1917 time (IIRC). the pattern in use during the BoB was the 1930 pattern.
Not many fighter pilots wore either in the battle, although many wore the Irvin jacket during the BoF, and Bader notably wore the Sidcot suit.

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

[Former_Older]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

No harm in sending it again is my view!

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

The sidcot suit is not a sheepskin jacket.
The 'Irvin' jacket is the sheepskin one, made by a number of contracts, most notably Irvin.
The Sidcot suit was developed by Frederick Sidney Cotton OBE (17 June 1894 – 13 February 1969) around 1917 time (IIRC). the pattern in use during the BoB was the 1930 pattern.
Not many fighter pilots wore either in the battle, although many wore the Irvin jacket during the BoF, and Bader notably wore the Sidcot suit.

Does Luthier need all this info? I sent Oleg pages of the stuff, and I detailed each specific item of kit available at the time

Roger that Phil, late night post, the old grey matter not quite the instant recall storage device it once was! Yes i did indeed mean Irvin, not Sidcot in reference to the jacket.

What prompted my point was a lot of screenies showing our Spit/Hurri pilots ensconced in the Irvin jacket in their a/c; I'm trying to find the book - it's here somewhere *rummage* - for the actual quote which prompted my statement.

Seemed an appropriate time to bring it up, discussion on uniforms and such.

[philip.ed]

Yes, sorry if I sounded aggressive mate 'Poor' British weather creating too much trouble hehehe
Yes, I hear you mate. I, too, have read accounts that said how the Irvin was just not suitable for fighter use (unless the weather really was that cold). Although it gets cold upstairs, the Irvin limits head-movement, as you said, which is essential in combat.
In one of Derek Robinson's books, he suggests that the pilots cut the collars off, but I believe this to be a myth. I doubt they'd have wanted to do this to such a prized item anyway
The BoB was quite hot, and many apparently flew in shirts...
Can any flyers comment on this? would this have been unbearably cold, even in the hot summer? I'm not sure whether this is true, or a myth, as many pictures were staged.

[SlipBall]

I would guess that the cockpit would be quite warm, sitting behind that big engine. Plus sunlight tends to heat up such a small area quickly, I experienced this and its a heat wave for sure. Add to this any kind of action, then you would wish to be in a t-shirt.

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Originally Posted by philip.ed

Battledress wasn't worn!!!! .

Philip, I'm inclined to agree that War Service Dress (aka Battledress) was probably not worn during the BoB dates but included reference to it since SOW is expected to cover complete WWII period.

War service dress was introduced in 1940 as a blue/grey version of the British Army's battle dress. Initially, war service dress was only worn by air crew. However, in 1943, its use was authorised for all ranks and trades. War service dress continued to be worn after the end of World War II. It was significantly altered in 1948 and not phased out until 1973.

Pete

[peterwoods@supanet.com]

Battledress Trial reported in 30th May 1940 issue of Flight magazine .



Don't know when first issues made but it seems clear that, although the "erks" got to comment for the trial, until 1943 it was only issued to aircrew.

Pete