Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Richie]

I sat threw nine hours of murder watching Shoah and I've seen countless other Docs. on the subject, gasoline injected into hearts for a simple test of endurance on how long a man can survive with fuel in his system, human skin covers on chairs in offices etc, I'm no idiot. These are the Aribert Heim's the Himler's and others who follow their doctron. Psychopaths.

[Richie]

What I'm saying is you can't put all of the Germans who fought in WWII into the group in the box above. I can just see Hans-Joachim Marseille pull up to Auschwitz in his little Kupple wagon and say..Hey we're behind schedual, fire up some more ovens! That last part is sarcasm.

This is actually a weird topic. It's like the Allies are trying to force shame on the people who like to fly German aeroplanes. "Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII" Guess who's going to look bad.

[moilami]

Ok for the sake of Socrates.

Lets start with what my grandfather said, a soldier in both Winter War and Continuation war. I was a kid during '80s and he told me a war story to which I replied "I would had never done it", eyes blinking innocently. My grandfather was a very good man, maybe the best man I know, and he never showed signs of frown or anger at me except two times. This time he was frowny and serious even and said "none who were not there can never understand". Is it a cliche?

No. It is a simple truth. Or do you imagine you can know something after reading books, watching documents and movies? Pardon me, gentlemen, when I say it is very naive to begin to judge common people and their actions in those mad times. You have exactly as much clue how life was in those sick times as you have clue about how sex with a woman is if you haven't ever experienced it. That is you have some clue and can say "oh WW2, sick nazies" without ever being there, as you can say "oh sex is wonderful" without ever even experiencing it. So are you wrong? No, you are right in both cases. But still I can say you don't understand how it is/was because you never experienced it. You have only been educated to imagine how it is/was.

Long story? No, the questions posed to start this thread are not trivial ones. They are about morals/ethics, which is very complex question. I think maybe 99% of you don't even understand the basics of those well enough to discuss anything as complex as WW2 ethics/morals. And no offence meant. And even if you knew, you would not be able to discuss anything good because you would still miss the actual first hand understanding how things was. Like you can't discuss sex good if you haven't ever experienced anything else than solo masturbation.

Conclusions: All this doesn't mean you are stupids and should stop discussing things you don't understand. It means keep discussing and try to understand as much as you can and never let it happen again. That is what you people can do. If you want.


SPOILER ALERT BELOW. DON'T READ IT BEFORE THINKING WHAT I HAVE WRITTEN SO FAR







Edit: See? My grandfather knew I would had done it, whatever it was, had I been there. Exactly in the same way you would had done all the same things what common people did in those sick times. If you were English, you would had done what English men did. If you were German, you would had done what German men did. If you were Russian, you would had done what Russian men did. Talk about ethics. Or jump back to conclusions.

[SlipBall]

And even today, men do what they are told to do, nothing has changed in the long history of humans. If the ruling party takes it's country to war, then there are few options for the people, both civilian and military.

[BadAim]

I'm quite impressed with this thread, and not a little surprised. The vast majority of posts here seem to be well considered, and I would be surprised had I not already had a rather high view of the flight sim community in general (save for the occasional twit).

Let me tell you a story that brings my own view on this subject into focus.

While in my school library (I was around 10 at the time) looking for some cool books on WWII with a friend, I made a comment about "those dirty Huns" (My WWII education at the time came largely from Hollywood....38 years ago). One of my teachers had managed to sneak up on us unnoticed and proceeded to read me the riot act about not painting people with a broad brush, and about having respect for these people who found themselves in often impossible situations, and of course the real knife to the heart, that he expected better of me! While I took to heart what he said, and "changed my ways" It was several years before I really understood the import of what he said.....he was a Jew! How could this be? He understood that people do what they have to to survive, and perhaps drag a little dignity along with them.....

I'm a man of strong moral convictions, and I hope that I'm willing to die for them, but there remains the question of if I really will when the time comes. I'll reserve judgment of those who have actually faced the test, until I do.....

[moilami]

Originally Posted by BadAim

I'm a man of strong moral convictions, and I hope that I'm willing to die for them, but there remains the question of if I really will when the time comes. I'll reserve judgment of those who have actually faced the test, until I do.....

Enjoyed your story. I have myself always been puzzled how Jews can be so level headed towards Germans. But maybe they understand something many don't, or maybe they have to deal with things many don't have to.

About the test you mentioned, I can say no test tells anything of the future. So don't wait for one test in order to know anything of the future. Rather keep your humble feets on the ground attitude and don't worry too much. I am sure as I can be in that you would succeed, if we can say so.

[Majo]

This is a game.
This is a game about plane simulation.
This is a game about combat simulation.
Still a game.
What a game...!!!

I can hardly understand how some people try to find ethics in a game.
It really surprises me that, somehow, there are still people around looking for ethics at war.
Not only that, they try to explain us all that their/our ethics are bigger and better than the theirs/others ethics.

I wonder what kind of ethics some people wear around here, in a game forum, while our everyday ethics rest dark in our closet.
Don´t you people watch the news or read the papers?
Don´t you people look out the window and feel how smells outside?

Salutes.

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Majo

This is a game.

I can hardly understand how some people try to find ethics in a game.
It really surprises me that, somehow, there are still people around looking for ethics at war.
Not only that, they try to explain us all that their/our ethics are bigger and better than the theirs/others ethics.

I wonder what kind of ethics some people wear around here, in a game forum, while our everyday ethics rest dark in our closet.
Don´t you people see the news or read the papers?
Don´t you people look out the window and feel how smells outside?

Salutes.

Exactly. But it is good if people think.

Did someone say people now are basicly the same as they were in 50 years ago? Or 2000 years ago? Nothing has changed, except in general people can be more educated. And nothing will change in people in the next 2000 years.

Why? Because evolution doesn't happen quicly. So even though people are more educated, and thus should know better, they are still just the same people as people were 2000 years ago. This means that if enough people begin to be unhappy, bad things will happen. And like that would not be enough, remember that there will be always "holier than thous", and these "holier than thous" has maybe started most of the wars.

So what is interesting is that if people would understand that they would had done whatever what has been done in the history, if they just were there, they might understand that they can still do whatever - even things what has not yet been done, and then they might understand that they are right now actually doing the same bad things. But noooo. They just rather happily live in "holier than thou" illusion; as it has been always, and as it will be always?

Anyway, I have to admit I am actually not very much bothered because there is nothing I can do about it. Yeah, I am one of those "people". I just watch as "things happen". I have justified my behaviour by thinking people will get what they deserve.

So over and out, sorry for my "pessimism", I should actually not post this but since I wrote it already I can post it. Doesn't change anything did I this or that

Salutes and meet you in the virtual sky, as an ally or enemy, you will be respected as either.

[Les]

Edit- Changed my mind, you get that.

[Ltbear]

its simply the "mop" syndrome. If you put a decent person into a group of not so decent, the decent person will, at the end follow the not so decents. Not because of politics not because of ethics or moral, but simply because we humans mirror the social envirement we live in. We live in groups because we are not made for solitary life.

If your life and health (Gestapo, social exclusion) requires you to be apart of the masses, you will end up doing it. Its easy to judge the Germans, but think what could/would happen to you and your family if you went against the leader of the masses.

You might not belive in the leaders words, but you follow them. Some because they want to, some because you have to. And yes, in ww2 Germany you had to, or you were dead, thats the fact...nothing else.....follow the others or end up dead.....

The German population and armed forces got told what they needed to know....and before you shoot that statement down...we have an exactly match in our world today...Not by the politics, but how you can controll the population....North Korea...

Put in the wrong situation at the wrong time many of us would do things we simply never thought we could do....

LTbear