Friday 2010-10-22 Dev. update and Discussion

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Start up procedures:

If they were available, I would use them a few times for each aircraft I flew. Once I got the procedure down, I would then just use the "quick start" option. The fun for me is from the time I push the throttle forward to take off until I cut the engine in front of the hangar.

That they are not included at release is no big deal to me. I'm sure if they ever become available in a future update I will learn them and then just go back to quick start.

THANK YOU to Oleg for answering the questions that have been posted on here. Above and beyond the call of duty.

Splitter

Actually that's a good attitude towards the whole deal. I too can wait for extra detail to be added. Like i always like to say, we didn't have water=3 in the original IL2, but we got it someday

As for me, i think i would use the manual mode every time and it would be especially rewarding if there was a bonus to it.
For example, the way Black Shark does it is good. You can press left windows key + home key and the chopper starts up all by itself but not as if by magic. It still goes through all the steps required. The advantage to learning how to do it yourself is that experienced users can start it faster than the auto-start feature can. So, pressing left win + home might start the chopper in 40 seconds, but an experienced user doing it manually might be able to do it in 25 seconds.

I think that's a very good compromise. It allows people who want full difficulty FM/DM without the hassle of extreme systems management to fly on the same server as people who want 110% difficulty (which prevents further diluting the community and spreading us thin across a billion servers with different difficulty settings), while also providing a reward and an incentive for those who take the time to learn how to do a few things extra.

In any case, the most important part for me is that we have a confirmation from mr. Maddox that even if checklists are not included, the consequences of improper system operation are there. That's the first and most important step and it will change and revolutionize the way people fly and fight online.
I just went back and read another one of his posts 1-2 pages back and it pretty much says that almost everything will work except the start procedure. That's good enough for me and a steep evolutionary curve from the IL2 way of doing things. I would still like to have it all modelled, but i know that this one must get to release sometime and money must be generated if we want to see more features

Also, Splitter's explanations about what won't work, what will work and how is pretty much the way i understand it as well. I doubt people will be forced to use either interface, the most probable thing to happen is that they will be able to use both at the same time according to what they like best.

I think that a lot of people are not familiar with clickable sims and that's why they think that clicking on things is mandatory in such sims. To my knowledge, there's not a single flight sim out there that forces you to click everything. Taking Black Shark as an example once again, i've never flown that but i downloaded the manual when it was made available before release. Every single switch and function in that chaotic cockpit can be mapped to a keypress or stick button, scratch that, they are even mapped by default the moment you install it. The reason people click stuff is that they can remember which button drops the gear and which lever changes the collective, but they can't remember that ctrl+shift+alt+> is used to select the fourth softkey in the bottom row of the MFD...for things like that it's simpler to just point at it and press the mouse button.

The important thing is to look at the forest and not just the tree. Most of us lack the interface and input devices to simulate everything the best way. Some have pedals, some have dual throttle HOTAS, some have head tracking, some have custom sim-pits, but very few people have everything.
In order for a title to succeed we need a strong user community. In order to build and sustain a community, all these people must have a means of flying together in the same environment, regardless of their hardware setup. In order for them to be able to fly the same software in the same environments, some things have to be designed to work with the most common PC interfaces that everyone is sure to have...keyboards and mice. If customized cockpits were cheap we wouldn't be having this discussion, but these things are not cheap at all.

So, the defining question ends up being this. Can we compromise to use less than ideal interfaces in order to have more advanced modelling of aircraft features, or will we throw the baby out with the bath water and miss out on a bunch of realism because we don't like the interface that much? I think the answer is obvious here. People who say that complex systems management should be neglected because clicking on stuff or remembering complex keymap assignments is unnatural are the equivalent of a real WWII pilot saying "i refuse to drop flaps for landing because i don't want to take my hands off the throttle and stick".

I'm glad the developers understand this and are giving us choices, instead of "railroading" the gameplay for everyone involved.

[Sutts]

When Oleg says no startup procedures it really isn't as bad as it sounds.....we already have most of the items referred to in the startup procedures. In fact we already do in IL2.

Here's a quick extract from the Hellcat pilot notes I have to hand:


Set throttle approx 1/5 open - WE HAVE THIS

Mixture - Idle Cut-Off - WE HAVE MIXTURE (I hope Idle/Cutoff is selectable)

Supercharger - Neutral - WE HAVE THIS

Battery Switch - On - PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THIS

Auxiliary fuel pump - On - PROBABLY DON'T HAVE THIS

Hold primer switch on for 3-5 seconds - ALMOST CERTAINLY DON'T HAVE THIS

Ignition switch - on "Both" - WE HAVE THIS

Starter switch "On" - WE HAVE THIS

When engine fires advance mixture control to "Auto Rich" - WE HAVE MIXTURE - I hope Auto Rich and Auto Lean are now properly modelled.

Do not exceed 100 RPM until oil temperature reaches at least 40 degrees C
- I HOPE OIL TEMP TAKES A LITTLE TIME TO RISE

If the oil pressure gauge does not indicate 40 p.s.i. within 30 seconds, the engine should be stopped.
- I HOPE THERE IS A REALISTIC DELAY IN OIL PRESSURE


So as you can see, we have most of the ingredients already.

The battery switch must be quite universal to aircraft of the day and would be very easy to model. I'm sure electrical failure is already modelled.

Other things referred to in pre-start check lists include cowl flap and landing flap position, propeller controls, intercooler and oil cooler doors, tail wheel lock, fuel selector, oxygen supply and flow, trim settings.

Again, we should have almost all of those controls too. I'm hoping fuel tank selectors are included.

So not bad at all really. Now, once the engine is started there are a few additional checks that include testing mags, supercharger and propeller controls. I don't know how many of you have compared the results of these tests with the real pilot's notes in IL2 but I can tell you they are very close already in IL2 - I remember being amazed when I switched magnetos in IL2 and got an accurate mag drop. Same with exercising the propellor.

A small feature that would be REALLY NICE is being able to enter the cockpit without all the controls already being correctly set for takeoff - as an option of course. This would enable those who like to follow procedures to follow them. There was a small utility created for IL2 that enabled this cold start procedure to be followed.

I hope the above puts some of our minds at rest.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

Actually that's a good attitude towards the whole deal. I too can wait for extra detail to be added. Like i always like to say, we didn't have water=3 in the original IL2, but we got it someday

As for me, i think i would use the manual mode every time and it would be especially rewarding if there was a bonus to it.
For example, the way Black Shark does it is good. You can press left windows key + home key and the chopper starts up all by itself but not as if by magic. It still goes through all the steps required. The advantage to learning how to do it yourself is that experienced users can start it faster than the auto-start feature can. So, pressing left win + home might start the chopper in 40 seconds, but an experienced user doing it manually might be able to do it in 25 seconds.

I think that's a very good compromise. It allows people who want full difficulty FM/DM without the hassle of extreme systems management to fly on the same server as people who want 110% difficulty (which prevents further diluting the community and spreading us thin across a billion servers with different difficulty settings), while also providing a reward and an incentive for those who take the time to learn how to do a few things extra.

In any case, the most important part for me is that we have a confirmation from mr. Maddox that even if checklists are not included, the consequences of improper system operation are there. That's the first and most important step and it will change and revolutionize the way people fly and fight online.
I just went back and read another one of his posts 1-2 pages back and it pretty much says that almost everything will work except the start procedure. That's good enough for me and a steep evolutionary curve from the IL2 way of doing things. I would still like to have it all modelled, but i know that this one must get to release sometime and money must be generated if we want to see more features

Also, Splitter's explanations about what won't work, what will work and how is pretty much the way i understand it as well. I doubt people will be forced to use either interface, the most probable thing to happen is that they will be able to use both at the same time according to what they like best.

I think that a lot of people are not familiar with clickable sims and that's why they think that clicking on things is mandatory in such sims. To my knowledge, there's not a single flight sim out there that forces you to click everything. Taking Black Shark as an example once again, i've never flown that but i downloaded the manual when it was made available before release. Every single switch and function in that chaotic cockpit can be mapped to a keypress or stick button, scratch that, they are even mapped by default the moment you install it. The reason people click stuff is that they can remember which button drops the gear and which lever changes the collective, but they can't remember that ctrl+shift+alt+> is used to select the fourth softkey in the bottom row of the MFD...for things like that it's simpler to just point at it and press the mouse button.

The important thing is to look at the forest and not just the tree. Most of us lack the interface and input devices to simulate everything the best way. Some have pedals, some have dual throttle HOTAS, some have head tracking, some have custom sim-pits, but very few people have everything.
In order for a title to succeed we need a strong user community. In order to build and sustain a community, all these people must have a means of flying together in the same environment, regardless of their hardware setup. In order for them to be able to fly the same software in the same environments, some things have to be designed to work with the most common PC interfaces that everyone is sure to have...keyboards and mice. If customized cockpits were cheap we wouldn't be having this discussion, but these things are not cheap at all.

So, the defining question ends up being this. Can we compromise to use less than ideal interfaces in order to have more advanced modelling of aircraft features, or will we throw the baby out with the bath water and miss out on a bunch of realism because we don't like the interface that much? I think the answer is obvious here. People who say that complex systems management should be neglected because clicking on stuff or remembering complex keymap assignments is unnatural are the equivalent of a real WWII pilot saying "i refuse to drop flaps for landing because i don't want to take my hands off the throttle and stick".

I'm glad the developers understand this and are giving us choices, instead of "railroading" the gameplay for everyone involved.

I am more familiar with X-Plane than MSFS and I think it does a wonderful job with some clickable cockpits on certain planes. During take-off and landing (the times your are "flying the airplane"), there is not much you need to do that requires clicks in the cockpit.

During flight, however, you are changing radio/nav frequencies, getting your plane into economy cruise, and constantly checking systems (pilots are rarely bored). THIS is when clickable cockpits come into play.

When the action starts, your head is outside the cockpit so to speak. You are using the keyboard and keeping an eye on the runway or traffic. I liken this to combat situations in SoW.

As a flight sim, you really want clickable cockpits to simulate being a "real" pilot. In combat, your really want your head outside the cockpit with control on the keyboard and joystick.

Trust me when I say that learning to fly a flight simulator is totally different than flying IL-2 in a dogfight. I like both...but I like combat more . "REAL" WWII combat pilots had to know how to fly, like in a flight simulator, and how to go into combat like in IL-2. What in the HELL is wrong with the option of doing BOTH in SoW?

I am sure Oleg and company are trying to make the program accessible and enjoyable to a wide variety of simmers/gamers. I don't think he is going to exclude one or the other. I am REALLY expecting, from what he has said, a possible combination of flight sim and combat sim. That would be INCREDIBLY unique.

Blackdog is infinitely more familiar with the online world of IL-2 than I. I hope what he envisions becomes reality. Engines take a bit to smooth out and settle into "running". You might get away with taking a cold engine into the air....and you might not.

I WANT to get into the online world with SoW. And I want "piloting" an aircraft to be a factor in being valuable to a squadron. I don't want it to just be about bouncing off the ground, not using the runway, and pointing your nose at an enemy and shooting. I like both things and I hope that both are somehow incorporated.

/mini rant.

In a fairly short time, I have come to trust Oleg's vision for SoW. It WILL NOT be perfect when released but it will have both the "wow" factor and depth.

In the words of OddBall, have a little faith, baby.

(Was the last reference too American? lol)

Splitter