Pony talk

[Tempest123]

Okay, I have avoided this topic until now because I know it’s been overdone, and that it evokes a lot of emotion and pointless “FM is porked!” threads, and that prior to TD coming on the scene there was no one looking at the official FM’s of Il2. I was hoping to have an educated debate, or maybe an official explanation about why the P-51D acts the way it does in Il2. Partly because, in my opinion, and I’m sure the opinion of many others, the P-51D model in Il2 that doesn't reflect its real life counterpart.

The P-51C, P-51B and Mustang III all have a FM that seems to represent the aircraft and its strengths well, and they do well for themselves in combat, I really enjoy these aircraft. They are fast, reasonably manoeuvrable for a heavy fighter, have an abrupt high speed stall as the real P-51 did, yet they are clearly better than most of the other aircraft in the sim at high altitude.
However, the D model is tricky aircraft that is very prone to stalling and spinning. Now the P-51 was created partly to prove that NA could design an aircraft better than the P-40, however the P-40 in Il2 (although slower), is much more stable than the P-51D, and much better in a dogfight, and I bet *most* Il2 pilots would feel more confident in a P-40M than a P-51D in most cases. I know a P-51D is not a superlight dogfighter, but the P-51B’s and C’s are much better at fighting than the D.

There are 2 issues with the P-51D compared to the B and C, that I think cause the majority of problems:

1: Yaw and directional instability: This is very present in the D model, and not so much with B and C models. This means partly that the aircraft is hard to put on target, and will spin more readily than a P-51B or C.
2: Pitch over sensitivity: This means that high speed stalls, spins and black outs occur very suddenly in the P-51D compared to nearly every other aircraft, including the B and C models.

Both of these seem to be related to a CoG that is too far aft, are these problems related to the fuselage fuel tank being the last tank to drain? I don't know if Il2 models CoG changes with fuel, but the B and C drain the same way and their FM appears to not be affected.

When an AI P-51D goes up against nearly any other AI plane of its class, it will usually end up in flames, I know part of this is due to poor AI tactics, but if this was what it was like in real life, it never would have replaced nearly every other USAAF fighter at the end of the war, including the earlier P-51 models, and remained in service long after other WWII types where discontinued. In Il2 I would say it’s one of the trickiest american aircraft to fly, the only aircraft that I find worse for unpredictable handling is the P-63, which was not accepted into USAAF service in wide numbers. In Il2 it seems the P-51D has become a specialist’s aircraft, with special tactics to overcome its problems. In real life it was fairly free of vices and possessed good handling qualities with long range, which was why it was so widely adopted. For myself I’ve had to avoid creating historical missions with the P-51D, because for the most part they all get shot down. These are just my observations and I would be interested if anyone else has noticed the same problems.

[KG26_Alpha]

Its a fast aircraft and should be flown that way.

The key to being successful is the fuel loading.

You wont need more than 25%, that's 30-40 mins flying iirc.

If you do, take drop tanks and ditch them at first sign of enemy.

Like most aircraft in IL2 1946 you need to learn their particular weaknesses and strengths.

Changing FM and DM wont stop you getting shot down.

As far as mission building goes use the same tactic with fuel and speed.

I have that same problem with FW's getting killed to easily by Russian counterparts

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

You wont need more than 25%, that's 30-40 mins flying iirc.

If you do, take drop tanks and ditch them at first sign of enemy.

Never use drop tanks with the Pony in IL2. They will add some drag even after you release them. 50% fuel is more than plenty for an hour of flight time, and I am not talking cruising speeds. With 25% you can stay airborne over 30 min, and with proper fuel and engine management way longer than that.

Just like you said... To me, it seems P-51 is properly modeled - as if you would drain your center fuel tank last, which was never done and actually prohibited. This tank was custom fitted in the field (correct me if I am wrong) and drastically changed Mustang's center of gravity. Hence the 'Mustang' name, stalling and everything else. IL2 doesn't model COG changes and it is my belief that with this COG the P-51D we have in game is modeled.

I am not sure about the difference between C/B and D models as you say. I found them equally 'difficult' to fly.

May Oleg and others prove me wrong.

---

I had no problems flying this thing online. It did took me a long time to master the 'Stang, but in the end I taught myself discipline that I couldn't achieve with any other plane.

[Erkki]

Mustang 3 and P-51D are only the 2 best fighters of the game. To me Fw 190 D-9 is only almost as good as the D5NT/NA. And to do that the 51 doesnt need any modifications...

If you put planes and players into historical situations flown historically, even without putting the worse pilots to German side, you can expect, and you will get, historical results.

If you test Ai vs. Ai I-16 type 24 is the best fighter of WW2

[Tempest123]

Originally Posted by Erkki

Mustang 3 and P-51D are only the 2 best fighters of the game. To me Fw 190 D-9 is only almost as good as the D5NT/NA. And to do that the 51 doesnt need any modifications...

If you put planes and players into historical situations flown historically, even without putting the worse pilots to German side, you can expect, and you will get, historical results.

If you test Ai vs. Ai I-16 type 24 is the best fighter of WW2

Yes, I understand what your saying about the AI, maybe the issue is more with the AI dogfighting tactics than the plane itself, I mean i-16 would have dominated As I don't fly online in historical situations much I haven't tested it out thoroughly. I have had some success on dogfight servers with the P-51D-5, and it seems to be a consensus that here that the AI is not up to handling all the different types of aircraft in Il2. There is no substitute for a real pilot I guess. I still find the D model unstable, but I have never flown a real one, so until that day I'll never know! On a side note, is there any servers that fly historical missions (not just melee dogfights) on a regular basis, or any squads that do this?

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by T.}{.O.R.

Never use drop tanks with the Pony in IL2. They will add some drag even after you release them.

Interesting bug

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Tempest123

Yes, I understand what your saying about the AI, maybe the issue is more with the AI dogfighting tactics than the plane itself, I mean i-16 would have dominated As I don't fly online in historical situations much I haven't tested it out thoroughly. I have had some success on dogfight servers with the P-51D-5, and it seems to be a consensus that here that the AI is not up to handling all the different types of aircraft in Il2. There is no substitute for a real pilot I guess. On a side note, is there any servers that fly historical missions (not just melee dogfights) on a regular basis, or any squads that do this?

MAby you shoulda try some ultr@ thing. stability issues fixed, new API 0.50 cal and some other things

[winny]

Good documentary over on the BoP board. P51 history.

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...577#post191577

EDIT : There's a great story of an American Pilot who stole a 109 and used it to escape after his '51 was shot down (Part 2)

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by Erkki

Mustang 3 and P-51D are only the 2 best fighters of the game. To me Fw 190 D-9 is only almost as good as the D5NT/NA. And to do that the 51 doesnt need any modifications...

If you put planes and players into historical situations flown historically, even without putting the worse pilots to German side, you can expect, and you will get, historical results.

If you test Ai vs. Ai I-16 type 24 is the best fighter of WW2

While the latter is true, most on-line pilots (me included) that flew all three types againt one another (before mods) will tell you that in terms of speed/firepower/ease of use - they are lined up in the following way: Fw-190D (earlier version) > Tempest > P-51D (NA-20)

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Interesting bug

It isn't a bug. Added pylons cause you to loose some 20-30 kmph of the top speed. IIRC it was documented.

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

MAby you shoulda try some ultr@ thing. stability issues fixed, new API 0.50 cal and some other things

It didn't bother me nor many on-line P-51 pilots that were good at flying it.

Yes, it should have been fixed, but accurate as they are in un-moded game, one can also find advantages.

[Tempest123]

Great video Thor, that's some nice flying. Its pretty deadly if flown by an experienced pilot