Interview with WWII reconaissance pilot

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

When someone says there is no difference, the lines between good and evil become blurred and THAT is when I start to worry.

Because there are neither good nor evil guys - all lies in the eye of the beholder.
The good guys are always on your side - the bad boys the other; based on education and religious belief.

See, I don't blame the fundamentalists for fighting for their Kalifate, but I don't bother kicking their ass either.

Conflicts are a part of human history and they always pushed our evolution, pressure makes us achieve certain goals way faster.

Just make sure your side wins.

You do remember the First Gulf War and how it was left unfinished? We all knew at the time back in '91 we would have to go back and finish the job at some point. The reason we went in the way we did in '03 was by the stab in the back by Turkey and the reduction of the size of our Army under Clinton.

Sorry, I'll have to wave the bullshit flag.
First, your first Gulf War is the 2nd, the first being Iran(and the US) vs. Iraq.

2nd: There was nothing to clean up. Now, If G.W. said he wants to invade Iraq because he doesn't like Saddams face I could have been fine with that(well, almost).

What the US leave behind is not free country but a weak wannabe-democracy. We'll have to wait another 20 years too see what happens, it could turn out well - but there's another option.
While SH was bitch to his people, at least he had them under control , this control is now lost.
Worst case scenario is: Iran and Iraq could unite.
So, in ~20 years, we could face a fundamentalist super state with nuclear weapon capability which also controls roughly 30% all oil resources on the planet.

Have fun dealing with them.

Galway, there are just wars and justified killings. I don't buy that there are no good guys and no bad guys. If your premise is correct, Churchill = Hitler. Roosevelt = Stalin. I don't buy that.

I do.
They just did what they believed in.

[Splitter]

Hey Swiss,

We are totally off topic now lol. So saying:

In the first Gulf War of which you speak...total brilliance from a strategic point of view at the time. They were fighting each other and NOT anyone else . From a Machiavellian point of view, Ron did great there.

On the second part of your post, yeah, we had clean up to do because we stopped short the first time around. We didn't want to offend the pacifists of the world which, of course, lead to another war.

But your prediction for the future is all too possible. There is a simple answer to the looming threat, but not one anyone wants to actually undertake.

Splitter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

but not one anyone wants to actually undertake.

Splitter

Can you imagine they beauty of the setting sun being reflected in a desert made of glas?

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by swiss

Can you imagine they beauty of the setting sun being reflected in a desert made of glas?

Now THAT, my friend, would be an over reaction lol.

I'm sure we could get away with just one JDAM lol.

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Well if you were going to TRY and claim a "just war" exists this century it would have to be the resistance by individuals in Iraq against incredible odds to repel foreign invasion that was illegal and ideologically/religious in motivation.

But personally I do not believe there is any such thing as a "just war". The idea of a "just war" is simply a fiction created by politicians of all sides to con the gullible public.

There are simply wars and your side does all it can to win as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Well if you were going to TRY and claim a "just war" exists this century it would have to be the resistance by individuals in Iraq against incredible odds to repel foreign invasion that was illegal and ideologically/religious in motivation.

But personally I do not believe there is any such thing as a "just war". The idea of a "just war" is simply a fiction created by politicians of all sides to con the gullible public.

There are simply wars and your side does all it can to win as quickly and efficiently as possible.

The only people I see in opposition are funded and supplied by terrorist organizations whose hatred is based on religion. I'm not really seeing any patriotic Iraqi independence movement.

And if our motivation was religious...why are we not trying to convert them Tokemata style?

Is it ideological to think that people prefer democracy over dictatorship?

Hey, I'm not saying we went to war to free the Iraqi people. That was only putting a nice face on the fact that we went in to get Saddam. But in the end, the Iraqi people are now in charge of their own future for the first time in a long time. What they do with it is up to them.

To say there is never a just war is to say that a country should never go to war. That's a hard sell to a country that is being invaded or attacked. So if no wars are just, they must all be unjust, yes? Was the US going to war with Japan unjust? Was Russia going to war with Germany unjust? Was Britain's air defense in the BoB unjust?

I think it is perfectly valid to ask whether an action in a "just" war is "unjust" or not (Dresden for example), but the verdict on the action would not invalidate the "justness" of the war itself.

If countries are never justified in going to war, then an individual is never justified in defending themselves. So is a homeowner who shoots a home-invader guilty of an unjustified homicide?

Splitter

[swiss]

So is a homeowner who shoots a home-invader guilty of an unjustified homicide?

Perfect example.

In Switzerland you'll spend the next 15 years jail, in Texas they will buy you a jug of beer.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Is it ideological to think that people prefer democracy over dictatorship?

Absolutely ... and so are the other classic US assumptions, that capitalism is good and that individual personal rights are paramount. These are ideological viewpoints that others may disagree with and need to be argued for, not obvious truths about the nature of the Cosmos.

It is pretty much only in the US that democracy is seen as some sort of infallibly perfect "one size fits all" solution that will solve all problems ... and its arguable whether even the US is truly a democracy anymore anyway, for starters most politicians are career politicians who started their apprenticeship for public office with one major party or other sometime around leaving high school so the US is ruled by a "political class" of power brokers.

In actual fact democracy only works in educated relatively well off first world countries such as the US. Even then it is generally corrupted by corporate business interests but in a first world country that does not really matter.

In a third world country where the population is illiterate and poor and the media is controlled by political, religious or business interests elections tend to be a farce and that is before you consider vote rigging.

Democracy does not work in the third world.



One of the most amusing things about US politics though is the way the main proponents of bringing "democracy" to the rest of the world, the far right, really do not actually believe in democracy at all. they believe in "good old American values" and feel have a god given right to rule and that everyone else should just acknowledge that and do as they are told

[K_Freddie]

Great stuff .. as usual - thanks FPSOlkor

We were returning from a mission, one Il was coming back with a large hole in the wing. I positioned myself over him, and said:
— Humpback, humpback, through a hole in your wing I’m viewing landmarks.
He replied:
— F.CK YOU…!!!

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

In actual fact democracy only works in educated relatively well off first world countries such as the US. Democracy does not work in the third world.

Shocking view of the world. Smells of typical European elitism. I think you need to do some research about Democracy and you will see the huge amount of benefits that this system has. Do you think this country was a Super Power when it was founded??????????

America acts the way it does today because we were dragged into 2 World Wars and the next would be an even worse catastrophe. The same reason we stayed in Europe, Japan, . Korea, etc.