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#1
10-15-2010, 02:43 AM
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You do remember the First Gulf War and how it was left unfinished? We all knew at the time back in '91 we would have to go back and finish the job at some point. The reason we went in the way we did in '03 was by the stab in the back by Turkey and the reduction of the size of our Army under Clinton. War is hell and every side has its atrocities. The only way to win is to use all available force to break the will of the enemy. There is a huge difference between fire bombing an enemy city, shooting captured soldiers, selling iron ore to the Nazi regime, raping 12 year old girls, doing nothing while watching an ally being invaded, hiding behind neutrality to avoid a just cause, or loading people into boxcars to their deaths. 
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#2
10-18-2010, 08:45 PM
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Only I was under the impression that we declared war on him, and lost a bit more than a 'few hundred lives' whilst 'standing up to Hitler' during the Norwegian Campaign, the Battle of France, subsequently in the Battle of Britain and the Battle of the Atlantic, also during the bombing campaign and North Africa. Where exactly do you see complacency in Britain's actions prior to the USA's involvement? Northern France was steamrollered into armistice and the rest of France capitulated. How would Britain and France therefore prevent the invasion of The Soviet Union? More importantly from the USA's perspective, how would Britain and France have prevented Pearl Harbour? Or Hitler's declaration of war on the US? Please, enlighten me. Thanks. Last edited by ATAG_Dutch; 10-18-2010 at 09:13 PM.
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#3
10-19-2010, 02:12 AM
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Reoccupying the Rhineland Ansclhuss with Austria Breakup of Czechoslovakia German Non-Agression pact with Soviet Union Invasion of Poland If France and Great Britain would have taken decisive action at any point of these events, Germany would have collapsed and the European side of World War 2 would have been averted. This would include a reconnaisance in force across the Rhine as soon as Poland was attacked. Of course this has more to do with France, since they are connected to the continent and had the land army to do this! It remains to be seen what Stalin would have done with no Nazi Germany next to him also?! If Japan was still to be foolish and attack the USA at Pearl Harbor the entire weight of the US military (along with the Allies) would have been focused on Imperial Japan---no 75%-25% Euro/Asia split. It would have collapsed much more quickly then it did saving 100's of thousands of deaths. I am just of the belief that sometimes it is better to do what needs to be done instead of discussing and talking about it and waiting for someone else to do it. When Germany reoccupied the Rhineland France and Great Britain should have invoked the Versailles Treaty, immediately mobilized and given it an ultimatum. My opinion is not meant to be disrespectful of the lives lost by our Allies in the fight against tyrannny...but I still think that Soviet pilot was wrong and deserves to be reprimanded or lose his wings 
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#4
10-19-2010, 02:31 PM
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I would have done the sortie too - but, unfortunately, miss all the bullets....
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#5
10-19-2010, 05:32 PM
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Last edited by lobosrul; 10-19-2010 at 05:35 PM.
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#6
10-19-2010, 06:35 PM
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Wasn't your business anyway. Oil is always a good reason to start a war. What was Gulf War two and three about? Quote:
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#7
10-19-2010, 06:43 PM
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I think a combined French and British offensive early in the war was not really feasible. Let's face it, the French military leadership was somewhere between incompetent and..well...worse than useless. Britain was not on enough of a war footing to wage offensive operations, they just had not prepared themselves for the coming storm adequately. The US would have been no help as we were sitting nice and snug across the vastness of the Atlantic.
The people and leadership of what eventually became known as the "Allies" were divided. A very few wanted war. A segment thought war was inevitable. About half wanted to do anything possible to avoid war including ignoring what Hitler was up to in Europe. To the latter group, the "crimes" Hitler was committing against other countries was not reason enough to shed blood. The populaces did not unite until war came to their doorsteps. There is a rumor that Roosevelt saw the need to get involved in the war and allowed Pearl Harbor to happen. This rumor is circumstantially validated by the fortuitous absence of US carriers when the attack occurred. Most of us don't think that is true, but it does show that some leaders (and people) saw the war as inevitable and that it was better to go sooner than later (we were already woefully late). What it took for many nations to get involved was a direct threat to their own country. Splitter
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#8
10-19-2010, 09:50 PM
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It's somewhat ironic the depths to which the reputation of France as a martial nation plunged after WWII. France had good commanders but the smug politics of the interwar army meant they couldn't rise to prominence.
Giraud, Bilotte, Juin, Weygand and de Lattre de Tassigny were hardly to be taken lightly, and the performance of the different units varied from pityful to outstanding. After the slaughter of WWI, french people ceased to feel their generals cared about them at all. Having allowed this feeling develop and let the army decline from a broad-based institution representing the nation to an organisation dominated by a narrowly-based reactionary clique, a small number of interwar figures must shoulder the blame for what was an inevitable collapse. Gamelin etc. tore the emotional heart from the French military. Setting aside "cheese-eating" etc. insults for the pathetic slurs they are, it's worth noting that every US officer that went to France in 1917-18 would have spoken excellent French. Jomini was the dominant figure in 19th Century military thought and the West Point curriculum was modeled on that of St Cyr. The psychotic, utterly amoral French nobility of the ancièn régime only ever had one virtue: their suicidal courage in battle. They were legendary for centuries even if their countrymen didn't feel so enthusiastic about them. Broad prejudices go in cycles. At a time when martial virtues were taken to signify moral elevation, the Irish Jacobite emigreés of the 18th Century were granted preference as loyal and brave. There were dozens of them: FM Peter Lacy (Russia), his son FM Franz Moritz (Francis Maurice) Lacy (Austria), FM Von Browne (Austria), Prince Nugent (Austria), a huge number of lesser generals, and Ambrosio (Ambrose) O'Higgins. A century later, their descendants were seen as debased, self-indulgent, stupid and untrustworthy, and were as welcome as plague rats and subject to extreme forms of racism. The ancient German inferiority complex regarding the French prior to 1870 was no more justified than the sense of moral supremacy they felt afterwards.
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#9
10-20-2010, 01:48 AM
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I did not want to get bogged down in details but from your reply you force me to. Thanks to lobosrul for giving Swiss some more details about what I meant
 France could have easily stopped the reoccupation of the Rhineland by advancing to the border or maybe 50 miles into German territory. The French Army was capable of this. At this point in time, the German General staff would have overthrown Hitler and this would have taken care of the Hitler problem. Please notice when the British Expeditionary Force landed in France. Please research your history of Austria and the relatively new nation of Germany. Better yet, tell an Austrian that he is actually German and see the reaction. There are German speaking areas of Switzerland also...aren't there Also Mussolini was against this and stopped the Germans from doing this sooner than '38. Please research the steps taken to breakup Czechoslovakia and how at any point the Allies could have mobilized and stopped this from happening. I have read all the new information about Stalin invading the Reich but I am not too sure if I believe it. It could have been a feint to keep Hitler in check?! Or Soviet propaganda to explain their terrible showing in 1941 and save Stalin's face! After the invasion of Poland the Allies did not take any serious ground action against Germany. The Western border was open to an attack by the French Army. Even a WW1 type Army using WW1 tactics! We cut off the Japanese oil supply because of the invasion of China. Maybe a bit naive but this is how Americans think and still think today. We found ourselves in many situations like this in our history. You really need to get your facts straight about the size of the combined Allied Armies in 1939 and the size of Germany's. In 1939 Germany was not in a war footing either...this only started in 1943-44. I personally think that the French would have done a lot better in offense than they did in defence!
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#10
10-20-2010, 02:24 AM
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But it's ok, as you are US American... Austria was always a part of Germany. Again: Do yourself a favor and research holy roman empire of german nation. Of course, today you shouldn't call an Austrian a German - do you think his perception could be influenced by the outcome of WW2? Quote:
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I gave you the link. German speaking territory=Germany Cz speaking=Cz Republic That pretty much sums Munich up. My German ancestors(was born with 2 nationalities) come from the Sudetenland. Quote:
Ever read about the German Roadsigns in Kyrillian? The Udssr had those in stock, they were sure they would need them. edit: That was in the late 80's, so Stalin and his successors had far bigger plans with Europe after WW2. Quote:
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Ok, I'll play along. So the F and UK marches into Germany, right to Berlin in fact, they must relive Hitler from his duty. (let's ingore the Army in Poland for the moment, as they would have been without leader) And then? Last edited by swiss; 10-20-2010 at 02:29 AM.
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