Interview with WWII reconaissance pilot

[Avimimus]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Avivmimus, I agree. Nothing more to say except that the sins of the father cannot be visited upon the son. All of us that were "there" when something happened bare some responsibility, good or ill. Those not yet born...no, I can't say that.

I think I see where our disagreement is: I'm talking about "crime and responsibility" versus "crime and punishment".

If a bystander witnesses a crime, they may have some responsibility - if not to stop it, then to testify in court. Similarly, if someone sees a situation which could lead to crime, they have some responsibility to investigate it further and advocate changes that can help prevent it.

I think it was wise to only punish higher level NAZI party leaders and some of the worst war criminals at lower ranks. It is important to not let people get away with such crimes. I wouldn't advocate grabbing your average Hitler youth and fining them for having been a NAZI. However, I might ensure that they look at photos of what their regime had done.

I don't think a time will ever come where Germans can say that they no longer need to know about the Holocaust - that it is time to completely give up that guilt. Their society had an unusual experience and part of correcting that experience is learning from it. So all German's should take responsibility to help ensure such events can never happen again, anywhere.

I'm saying that I'm willing to share in this guilt and responsibility. With the last few people from that war passing on now, we're all bystanders.

Originally Posted by Splitter

If you go to war to protect people from oppression who cannot protect themselves, is that not justified? I would say that is maybe the best reason to go to war morally. If I knowingly let my neighbor be tortured and killed by some bad guy and never go to their aid, am I not "guilty" in some respect?

I think a distinction needs to be made between "necessary" and "just" or "good". There are times where it is necessary to go to war - there are times when it is even the right choice. But, the result is still horrible and evil.

In other words, it is possible to have a justified war, but not a just one.

Originally Posted by Splitter

So did this recon pilot somehow overreact in straffing retreating German troops? Did the pilot who landed his plane only to get out and shoot a downed German pilot because his family had been raped and killed by Germans overreact? Where the line is drawn is what is up for discussion....But I really don't think one should not be equated with the other.

Splitter

I don't think any war-crimes can ever be equated. Each one happened to different people. This is even true of each different crime in the Holocaust.

[Splitter]

Swiss: Gawd Bless Texas then lol. Actually, in the vast majority of states here, the homeowner would probably be ok. The District Attorney may choose to prosecute in certain states (like mine) but he/she would be hard pressed to get a jury to convict. It's sad that people are not allowed to protect themselves in their own homes.

Avimimus: Understood. That is why remembering history is so important.

Galway: Our left is much more controlling than our right. You are correct in that neo-cons feel the need to spread democracy, but they are a shrinking group now and their party is being taken over by traditional conservatives.

Yeah, I'll stick to the theory that being able to choose your leaders is a good thing that most people in the world want. Corruption happens everywhere and no system is perfect, but people tend to choose freedom. The question is only whether they are willing to fight for that freedom. I am surprised that you think that democracy should only be reserved for the well off.

In talking about career politicians....you pretty much described out current leadership lol. There is a backlash against those politicians going on now, watch our elections closely next month to see.

We are so far off target now I can't even see the Russian recon pilot lol. Sorry people. I do take my hat off to the men (and women) who flew those birds into combat. Death was a daily companion and killing was expected. No "Refly" button.

Splitter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

When someone says there is no difference, the lines between good and evil become blurred and THAT is when I start to worry.

Because there are neither good nor evil guys - all lies in the eye of the beholder.
The good guys are always on your side - the bad boys the other; based on education and religious belief.

See, I don't blame the fundamentalists for fighting for their Kalifate, but I don't bother kicking their ass either.

Conflicts are a part of human history and they always pushed our evolution, pressure makes us achieve certain goals way faster.

Just make sure your side wins.

You do remember the First Gulf War and how it was left unfinished? We all knew at the time back in '91 we would have to go back and finish the job at some point. The reason we went in the way we did in '03 was by the stab in the back by Turkey and the reduction of the size of our Army under Clinton.

Sorry, I'll have to wave the bullshit flag.
First, your first Gulf War is the 2nd, the first being Iran(and the US) vs. Iraq.

2nd: There was nothing to clean up. Now, If G.W. said he wants to invade Iraq because he doesn't like Saddams face I could have been fine with that(well, almost).

What the US leave behind is not free country but a weak wannabe-democracy. We'll have to wait another 20 years too see what happens, it could turn out well - but there's another option.
While SH was bitch to his people, at least he had them under control , this control is now lost.
Worst case scenario is: Iran and Iraq could unite.
So, in ~20 years, we could face a fundamentalist super state with nuclear weapon capability which also controls roughly 30% all oil resources on the planet.

Have fun dealing with them.

Galway, there are just wars and justified killings. I don't buy that there are no good guys and no bad guys. If your premise is correct, Churchill = Hitler. Roosevelt = Stalin. I don't buy that.

I do.
They just did what they believed in.

[Splitter]

Hey Swiss,

We are totally off topic now lol. So saying:

In the first Gulf War of which you speak...total brilliance from a strategic point of view at the time. They were fighting each other and NOT anyone else . From a Machiavellian point of view, Ron did great there.

On the second part of your post, yeah, we had clean up to do because we stopped short the first time around. We didn't want to offend the pacifists of the world which, of course, lead to another war.

But your prediction for the future is all too possible. There is a simple answer to the looming threat, but not one anyone wants to actually undertake.

Splitter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

but not one anyone wants to actually undertake.

Splitter

Can you imagine they beauty of the setting sun being reflected in a desert made of glas?

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by swiss

Can you imagine they beauty of the setting sun being reflected in a desert made of glas?

Now THAT, my friend, would be an over reaction lol.

I'm sure we could get away with just one JDAM lol.

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Well if you were going to TRY and claim a "just war" exists this century it would have to be the resistance by individuals in Iraq against incredible odds to repel foreign invasion that was illegal and ideologically/religious in motivation.

But personally I do not believe there is any such thing as a "just war". The idea of a "just war" is simply a fiction created by politicians of all sides to con the gullible public.

There are simply wars and your side does all it can to win as quickly and efficiently as possible.

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Well if you were going to TRY and claim a "just war" exists this century it would have to be the resistance by individuals in Iraq against incredible odds to repel foreign invasion that was illegal and ideologically/religious in motivation.

But personally I do not believe there is any such thing as a "just war". The idea of a "just war" is simply a fiction created by politicians of all sides to con the gullible public.

There are simply wars and your side does all it can to win as quickly and efficiently as possible.

The only people I see in opposition are funded and supplied by terrorist organizations whose hatred is based on religion. I'm not really seeing any patriotic Iraqi independence movement.

And if our motivation was religious...why are we not trying to convert them Tokemata style?

Is it ideological to think that people prefer democracy over dictatorship?

Hey, I'm not saying we went to war to free the Iraqi people. That was only putting a nice face on the fact that we went in to get Saddam. But in the end, the Iraqi people are now in charge of their own future for the first time in a long time. What they do with it is up to them.

To say there is never a just war is to say that a country should never go to war. That's a hard sell to a country that is being invaded or attacked. So if no wars are just, they must all be unjust, yes? Was the US going to war with Japan unjust? Was Russia going to war with Germany unjust? Was Britain's air defense in the BoB unjust?

I think it is perfectly valid to ask whether an action in a "just" war is "unjust" or not (Dresden for example), but the verdict on the action would not invalidate the "justness" of the war itself.

If countries are never justified in going to war, then an individual is never justified in defending themselves. So is a homeowner who shoots a home-invader guilty of an unjustified homicide?

Splitter

[Hunden]

[QUOTE=swiss;189654]Because there are neither good nor evil guys - all lies in the eye of the beholder.


And I quote
"Sorry, I'll have to wave the bullshit flag.

While SH was bitch to his people, at least he had them under control , this control is now lost."


The truth be told. Spoken like a true liberal, the people must be controlled for thier own good............

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Hunden

The truth be told. Spoken like a true liberal, the people must be controlled for thier own good............

oh boy.

You are not that clueless I hope.

I'm talking about two groups: take a guess.