Oleg, SOW engine abuse by pilot?

Originally Posted by Azimech

Yes, magneto's are modeled in the IL2 series but setting magneto's is good for nothing. Running with both mags produces a dual flamefront in the combustion chamber which reduces the risk of engine knock, very important in the big bore engines of WW2, so switching them has no purpose at all.
Not even for shutting down the engine like we do with our car, in aircraft we let the engine running above 1000 rpm or more, en set mixture to Idle/Cutoff.

I'm sorry mate but "we" who? You really switch off your propeller plane by cutting the mixture? That is one helluva dangerous game man.. If I did something like this with my instructor would have kicked my ar$e, you switch off the engine by bringing the engine to idle and cutting both magnetos off, that is like the first thing they teach you..

Selecting fuel tanks has a real function and should be there. Not only balance is a factor, battle damage too if a tank is damaged beyond the self-sealing capacity. Plus, every tank has a feed and a return line. The return line is for fuel that has not been used by the engine. Such a waste if that bleeds into a shredded tank.

Same as booster pumps. If the mechanical fuel pump on the engine fails (battle damage?), most if not all planes have electrical pumps that can be enabled. You have a sudden drop or total loss in power, you check the fuel pressure gauge, see that it's low or gone, and switch on a backup. That's immersive.

Damage to the cooling system: If a plane has radiators in/under the wing or fuselage which are damaged, you close them to prevent loss of all cooling fluid and adjust power for the loss of the cooling capacity.

Something else that can be considered: generator failure. You check the ammeter and see it's showing zero so you're running on battery power only. So decide quickly: withdraw from combat and try to get to base, and/or switch off all electrical systems you don't need so the ones you really need will work longer. That could mean switching off your flight instruments, lights, trimming, guns, revi, radio's/navigation... maybe even the hydraulic pump if it's electric and there is a pressurized buffer in the system. You check the voltmeter. The more systems are online, the lower the voltmeter will show, and the faster it will drop. Electrical motors will turn slower but they will work. On the other hand delicate equipment like navigation or radio's, which use a lot of power, drop dead below a certain value. You switch some systems off and see the voltmeter rising.
Since you have no idea without instruments what the temperature of the engine will be: open cowl, intercooler and oilcooler flaps to the max, switch to lower supercharger stage or lower turbocharger RPM.

Especially the FW190 has all primary flight controls operated electrically, even flaps and undercarriage. And also the Kommandogerät, which operates hydraulically, mechanically and electrically. With the generator gone, the voltage already drops and response to input by the pilot will be slower and the motors may even have trouble fighting the effect of compressibility. If the battery is almost empty, landing gear and flaps might not lower correctly, and using more motors at the same time, for instance using all control surfaces at once, might stall one or all motors.


What's even worse is that a battery, using a chemical process, loses a lot of it's capacity at low temperatures. So if you lose the generator and are at high altitude, descend before your battery cools down and you lose even more power.

I think you are a bit confused about the use of batteries and generators on aeroplanes. Just like in a car, a battery is used for startup and operating electric/electronic parts, but the alternator (or generator) does the rest (from the P-51 Mustang manual):

The electrical system runs off the battery until the engine reaches 1500-1700 RPM, when the generator is cut in by the voltage regulator. Power for the electrical system then is supplied by the generator.


besides, if memory serves, back in WW2 they already made use of dry batteries, so there was no "icing" problems. If the generator fails the engine simply quits, the battery doesn't replace its work.

I don't mean to tell anyone off, but guys, please check your sources and info before posting stuff, if there's one thing that is worse than lack of information, that is the wrong one! Think of the sake of the simulator, not just the fact that you want to say yours about a subject.

SJ

[Azimech]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger

I'm sorry mate but "we" who? You really switch off your propeller plane by cutting the mixture? That is one helluva dangerous game man.. If I did something like this with my instructor would have kicked my ar$e, you switch off the engine by bringing the engine to idle and cutting both magnetos off, that is like the first thing they teach you..

Watch this excellent training video for the P47 from 21:55:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y3v1-WMJS8

And that's not the first time I've seen or read that kind of shutdown procedure.

Maybe your plane has a different engine? What is meant for a Lycoming or Continental might not apply to a Wright or Pratt.

I think you are a bit confused about the use of batteries and generators on aeroplanes. Just like in a car, a battery is used for startup and operating electric/electronic parts, but the alternator (or generator) does the rest (from the P-51 Mustang manual):

The electrical system runs off the battery until the engine reaches 1500-1700 RPM, when the generator is cut in by the voltage regulator. Power for the electrical system then is supplied by the generator.

Where did I state it otherwise? The subject was a dead generator during flight.

besides, if memory serves, back in WW2 they already made use of dry batteries, so there was no "icing" problems. If the generator fails the engine simply quits, the battery doesn't replace its work.

EVERY kind of battery, dry or fluid, loses capacity when the temperature drops.
And fluid batteries only freeze when they're flat. If charged, the freezing point is well below 0 C.

Anyway, would be strange don't you think? Starting the engine from battery, thus operating all systems, until the generator kicks in. Why do you assume that everything will stop if the generator dies? I wouldn't fly a plane that's so poorly engineered!

And the engine doesn't quit, because magneto's use their own power.
From the wiki: "Because it requires no battery or other source of energy, the magneto is a compact and reliable self-contained ignition system, which is why it remains in use in many general aviation applications."

Originally Posted by Azimech

Watch this excellent training video for the P47 from 21:55:

And that's not the first time I've seen or read that kind of shutdown procedure.

Maybe your plane has a different engine? What is meant for a Lycoming or Continental might not apply to a Wright or Pratt.

I have experience on small engines like the Lycoming and Continental and on P&W Wasp and RR Merlin, and the procedure is the same on all. The one you see in the training video is a military procedure, but the engine is considered switched off when the magnetos are off. If you move the propeller of a plane that has just stopped and the magnetos are on, it's very likely the engine might have some pistons firing. The choice of cleaning the explosion chambers depends also on the weather and temperature conditions.
Magneto switching is a very important part of the preflight checks, before take off you bring RPM well below idle and try running the engine on one magneto at a time, all you should get is a circa 100 RPM drop. If your engine quits with just one magneto off it means that the one that is on is faulty.
A dual magneto system is not meant to burn mixture better, it's a redundant system to have extra security.

Where did I state it otherwise? The subject was a dead generator during flight.

yes, dead generator means dead systems. Game over.

EVERY kind of battery, dry or fluid, loses capacity when the temperature drops.
And fluid batteries only freeze when they're flat. If charged, the freezing point is well below 0 C.

the batteries used on aeroplanes were meant to operate at low temperatures.

Anyway, would be strange don't you think? Starting the engine from battery, thus operating all systems, until the generator kicks in. Why do you assume that everything will stop if the generator dies? I wouldn't fly a plane that's so poorly engineered!

..then you don't want to fly in most WW2 planes or light sport aviation planes. If your generator fails your battery won't be able to run your systems for long. Most of the engine ancillaries like magnetoes and primary pumps (at least in WW2 planes and light aviation) are actually connected and powered by the engine by means of reduced gearings, but you will still need the generator to run other components (flaps, aux pumps, ligths, gunsight, some instruments, radio, some cooling systems etc..)

And the engine doesn't quit, because magneto's use their own power.
From the wiki: "Because it requires no battery or other source of energy, the magneto is a compact and reliable self-contained ignition system, which is why it remains in use in many general aviation applications."

does wiki mention the fact that some systems that keep the engine running and performing adequately need electricity? You mentioned the FW190 kommandgerat which I think it's the perfect example.

[Flanker35M]

S!

Even a modern jet works like that these days. If generator(s) fails then the battery keeps most important systems(back-up ones) working for about 15-30min, so not bad design. But you lose anything else requiring higher voltage so basically a jet is rendered to fly on mechanical system if there is one. The plane I work on has this.

[robtek]

I can't stay quiet here.
I learned to stop the engine of a c152 or pa28 or any other small plane with setting the mixture to lean!!!!
The reason is: no combustible mixture makes it very shure that there is no backfiring or ignition when the prop of a hot engine is accidentily moved, even with ignition set to on.
To stop a airplane engine by switching the ignition (magnetos) off is dangerous and just plain WRONG!!!!
And of course a airplane engine is constructed to run without external power, be it generator or battery.
Those are only needed for auxilary systems!
The "Kommandogerät" of the FW190 could be set to manual override if i.e. the electric was lost.

Originally Posted by robtek

I can't stay quiet here.
I learned to stop the engine of a c152 or pa28 or any other small plane with setting the mixture to lean!!!!
The reason is: no combustible mixture makes it very shure that there is no backfiring or ignition when the prop of a hot engine is accidentily moved, even with ignition set to on.
To stop a airplane engine by switching the ignition (magnetos) off is dangerous and just plain WRONG!!!!
And of course a airplane engine is constructed to run without external power, be it generator or battery.
Those are only needed for auxilary systems!
The "Kommandogerät" of the FW190 could be set to manual override if i.e. the electric was lost.

I haven't made myself clear:

switch off procedure:

1) taxi to parking
2) ancillaries checklist (flaps, brakes etc..)
3) mixture to lean
3) throttle to idle/cutoff (if present)
4) engine stops detonating
5) magnetos off

now the engine is off

you can take the engine to idle and switch it off with the magnetos, which is not dangerous at all, it is actually considered safer because even if there is some mixture residue (you might have a faulty inlet valve for instance), there will be no spark from the plugs in case of accidental prop swinging.

I didn't know you could override the kommandgerat, where were the manual controls for the engine?

Guys, I have hundreds of hours on single engine propeller planes, and I don't mean to brag but I think I quite know what I'm doing when flying (and switching an engine off).

Blackdog, I know it sounds like that, but in some planes a dead generator really means the games are over in a split second.

Comparing the use of high compression engines with low ones (aeroclub boxer engines vs wartime radials or inline) is improper. We takeoff the Mustangs with never more than 75% throttle simply because there's plenty of power to do everything and above all you don't want to over stress cylinder banks that are 60+ years old, but in the warbirds circuit there are several pilots that firewall their engines, which often means catastrophic (and very costly to repair) damage. We had a case a couple of years ago of a mustang pilot who used to takeoff at full military power (or WEP) and who had a major failure fortunately once on the ground.
Cutting off engines by leaning the mixture is considered a bad habit by some, while others think it's perfectly fine. I think it's all down to the machine you're flying with and environmental factors.

and once again, an engine is not considered safely switched off until the magnetos are on, and that is the same for every plane.

[Blackdog_kt]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger

I'm sorry mate but "we" who? You really switch off your propeller plane by cutting the mixture? That is one helluva dangerous game man.. If I did something like this with my instructor would have kicked my ar$e, you switch off the engine by bringing the engine to idle and cutting both magnetos off, that is like the first thing they teach you..


I think you are a bit confused about the use of batteries and generators on aeroplanes. Just like in a car, a battery is used for startup and operating electric/electronic parts, but the alternator (or generator) does the rest (from the P-51 Mustang manual):

The electrical system runs off the battery until the engine reaches 1500-1700 RPM, when the generator is cut in by the voltage regulator. Power for the electrical system then is supplied by the generator.


besides, if memory serves, back in WW2 they already made use of dry batteries, so there was no "icing" problems. If the generator fails the engine simply quits, the battery doesn't replace its work.

I don't mean to tell anyone off, but guys, please check your sources and info before posting stuff, if there's one thing that is worse than lack of information, that is the wrong one! Think of the sake of the simulator, not just the fact that you want to say yours about a subject.

SJ

Actually, a lot of things are done differently depending on aircraft type. I don't know what happens in aero clubs, but in the army the preferred method to shut down pretty much anything seems to be cutting the mixture.

I saw this when serving my conscription tour as a flak gunner on Rheinmetal 20mm twins. These guns are operated with the aid of a 160cc wankel engine. During training they told us there's two ways to stop that engine, pressing the stop button or cutting the fuel supply. When we asked which is best, they told us "stop button for emergency only, fuel cutoff for everything else".

Months went by, i got posted to a unit, started doing the things a soldier does and at some point i got posted to the unit's AA company and came in contact again with the Rheinmetal guns. Each day we'd take a different gun out of the hangar, so that we checked all of them in rotation, set it up for firing, etc. Sometimes we took out the same gun after only 3 days or a week and that's when i understood their obsession with fuel cut-off. Depending on weather conditions, the exact same engine on the exact same gun driving the exact same hydraulic actuators would run smooth as butter one day and give us hell to start the next one. There's no sophisticated mixture control in that engine, just an ignition, a primer and a pull-cord starter. When people swtiched the engines off by pressing the stop button and not cutting the fuel, what happened was that unburnt fuel was left inside the engine. Depending on weather, the next time we wanted to start that engine the amount of fuel left in it could be wrong for the weather we had at that day.

If it's insufficient you can prime some extra fuel into it, but if there's excess fuel in the chamber all you can do is spend 5 minutes pumping out the excess fuel and clearing the engine by repeatedly pulling on the rip-cord starter with the ignition and fuel supply turned off,which is not very pleasant during peacetime and bad weather, or worse, during an actual air-raid. Hence the "always use the cut-off" emphasis.

It's a similar case for aircraft engines, even though they differ a lot with their huge displacement and compression ratios compared to a puny 160cc wankel, what mattered the most was making sure the engine will run when you need it the most and not that it will run for the longest amount of years. Better have a "dry" engine that needs to be primed before start, than have an overflooded engine that needs to be turned without ignition to be cleared before being primed before being started during a scramble call.
That's the reason most of the restored warbirds are ran at different power settings than the wartime values, in the war they wanted to ensure performance when they needed it the most, but in the airshows the main care is to ensure maximum component life so as to keep them flying for longer.

Also, you say this

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger

yes, dead generator means dead systems. Game over.

but it makes it seem like it all goes dark in a split second. What you say next is a better description

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger

If your generator fails your battery won't be able to run your systems for long.

"For long" being the operative phrase. If you switch off everything you don't need, there's an airfield within 20 miles of your position and you get priority/emergency clearance by ATC, i guess you could make a safe landing without a generator, running only a couple of instruments from the battery. Of course, it would be a different story at night where you need more radios, more light equipmeent and so on.

Actually that is exactly what azimech was hinting at. Dead generator--->need to conserve battery to RTB--->player will have to choose what to keep running and what to turn off=interesting gameplay.

[Flanker35M]

S!

In modern jets if you lose the generator then batteries are designed to work for about 30min(back-up instruments and some other systems), to give you time to get to safe or even land if possible. The engines run and if they do then are the hydraulics working, but with batteries the FCS computers won't work as they require more voltage than a battery can provide, so you are on a backup system that gives limited aircraft control. This causes landing speed to be high thus in most cases it is safer to eject after flying out to a safe area. In a WW2 plane you could land easier and have less hassle if losing the generator and running on battery..depending on the plane of course.