Nuklear bomb

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

There's nothing like an ad hominem argument to settle things, eh, Splitter?

Still, how about Dwight D. Eisenhower, Douglas MacArthur and Chester W. Nimitz? Did they 'hate the US'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_...a_and_Nagasaki

Noam Chomsky is an anarchist. He has disdain for all authority. He is an intellectual elitist. He is anti-capitalist. He has taken every opportunity to criticize American foreign policy that he could. I say consider the source when citing his opinion.

The report you cite assumes that fire bombing would continue. Was fire bombing better? The report was also written after the war when Japanese (who had just been bombed and defeated, btw....they could have been a bit biased I am thinking) officials could be interviewed.

You leave out some facts, however, such as the Japanese plan to meet an invasion on the beach with thousands of kamikazes. And this quote: "We can no longer direct the war with any hope of success. The only course left is for Japan's one hundred million people to sacrifice their lives by charging the enemy to make them lose the will to fight.".

Also note that the Soviets had been urged to enter the war for some time, but they refused until after the first bomb had been dropped. Supposedly they had set a date to declare war on Japan. But clearly their objective was to grab a piece of Japanese occupied territory. If, as some believe, the Japanese would have surrendered as soon as the Soviets declared war then those people also have to blame the Soviets for waiting....(not my view, btw).

I understand that it is easier and more popular to believe that the US was and is bloodthirsty and would willingly sacrifice tens of thousands of lives for pure politics. But to come to that conclusion, you have to ignore a lot of facts.

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Splitter

I understand that it is easier and more popular to believe that the US was and is bloodthirsty and would willingly sacrifice tens of thousands of lives for pure politics. But to come to that conclusion, you have to ignore a lot of facts.

Splitter

No, actually the most common argument you come across (not saying it has any real basis) was that the US dropped the bombs unnecessarily because it was their last chance to test the weapons effects against actual live civilian targets before the war finished.

Personally I am not sure if that is likely. Whilst from the cold war onwards the US may have become arrogant paranoid and defensive and no longer cares about world opinion, the US in WWII had a much better claim to occupying the moral high ground and was far more concerned with "doing the right thing" than it has ever been since.

[AndyJWest]

Noam Chomsky is ... anti-capitalist.

So am I as it happens. No point in arguing with you then. I'll leave you to your comfortable ignorance of history...

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

So am I as it happens. No point in arguing with you then. I'll leave you to your comfortable ignorance of history...

I would never have guessed lol.

Purely out of curiosity and for my own edification, I inquire where you are from and your age.

I am 41 and from the US (Maryland to be exact).

Splitter

[BadAim]

LOL! perfect argument for placing Xilon on your ignore list.

[BadAim]

Originally Posted by Splitter

I would never have guessed lol.

Purely out of curiosity and for my own edification, I inquire where you are from and your age.

I am 41 and from the US (Maryland to be exact).

Splitter

Damn! I conservative from the peoples republic of Maryland? I didn't think they made our kind there! LOLS

(BTW I'm from the PRO Connecticut, so I can relate)

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by BadAim

Damn! I conservative from the peoples republic of Maryland? I didn't think they made our kind there! LOLS

(BTW I'm from the PRO Connecticut, so I can relate)

I am old skool conservative.....not like these new fangled Rinos . I like all that individual rights/Constitution/small government stuff. Down here we call it Marylandistan and it ain't easy living here lol.

Andy: Just my own curiosity as I said. The way the US is viewed around the world is interesting to me. Like you (I am assuming here and you know how that goes) I would like the US to withdraw from world politics for a decade or so with our only demand being free flowing cheap oil. Small price to pay to make the Americans mind their own business, no? The reason I would like to see it probably differs from yours but we could agree to try it and see how it works out .

PS....I am glad this discussion stayed relatively civil by internet standards.

Splitter

[AndyJWest]

The way the US is viewed around the world is interesting to me.

I wasn't aware I was even debating the way the US is seen. I thought we were debating the use of nuclear weapons against Japan. As far as I'm aware, none of the western Allies raised objections at the time, though I'm sure that they were aware of the project - the British were certainly deeply involved. To me the question is about what was done, and why, not about who did it.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

As far as I'm aware, none of the western Allies raised objections at the time, though I'm sure that they were aware of the project - the British were certainly deeply involved. To me the question is about what was done, and why, not about who did it.

Churchill was ecstatic at the news, his adviser Lord Allenbrooke wrote:

“Churchill was enthusiastic, and already saw himself with the ability to eliminate all Russia’s major industrial population centres” (Le Monde Diplomatique, August 1990).

[Splitter]

Yes, as far as I know, the western Allies were all aware of the Manhattan project one way or another.

The US flat out told Churchill we had the bomb. The Soviets were not told so specifically, but they knew about the Manhattan project through their spy network in the States. The Communist Party was fairly large here before the war so recruits were easy to come by (nothing against the Soviets on that front, spying was just part of the game). They did not, however, think the US has developed the bomb yet.

(Interestingly and as an aside, the Nazi party was also rather large before the war in the US.)

In all likelihood, the Brits would have been for dropping the bomb ASAP while the Russians would have sought delay. They wanted the opportunity to capture more Japanese holdings before the war ended. The Soviets wanted free access to the Pacific and were hoping Japan would be split much like Germany had been.

I am absolutely positive that future world politics was part of the decision making process for dropping the bomb. But I think the over riding factor for Truman was his responsibility (duty really) to prevent the loss of hundreds of thousands of American lives. I also think he saw that a decisive blow, as horrible as it would be, would save Japanese lives and infrastructure in the long run.

As I said earlier, no one in their right minds would volunteer to make a decision like that. Even if it is the right thing, even if there was no other real choice, you would still be signing the death warrant of thousands of people. It's impossible to imagine how much that has to weigh on someone's soul.

Splitter