BSM Rank and Class System

[Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by Chortles

Ninja2dan, how could we tweak this system or utilize it if one were to decide to use the sniper/spotter for this one? (i.e. by, uh... having more leeway with regards to team/squad size. )

For some reason it seems to me that such would help make the "stereotypical" sniper more viable, whereas without a spotter I'd be more likely to go the designated marksman route in-game.

Don't worry, I am aware that the answer is that "SBRS AHOY!" As much as I like CQB weapons personally for fitting my frame better.

I'm not sure I fully understand the question, but at first glance it looks like you're asking about using a possible "spotter" role. By somehow tweaking the max squad size, and offering an additional class role as a Spotter that would work alongside the Sniper. Or am I way off?

[Kyle]

I apologize in the delay to my testing last night, but I can't locate the last officer remaining, and I wanted to eliminate him so that I could rest for 24 hrs., check the bank account (to see if it's working). I don't want to deal with the possibility that if I leave the area and return, that the officers will have repopulated the town, and then I have a whole new firefight to deal with just to check something that should take but a few seconds' worth of time...

So, my report sans what's mentioned above...

First, no CTDs, even after Leveling Up to Level 1. No double video plays, and all in all, I'd have to say that some pretty annoying headaches are gone. THANK YOU!

You were right in saying that the alternate WEAPONSINFO.ini is more challenging. It seems to me that the weapons are a lot more lethal, and I'm certainly not being as sloppy moving through the area of operations.

Personally, I like it. I'm eager to find out how the weapons higher up on the CGL feel like with this config.


SUGGESTIONS
Is there any way to add a Settings option that would allow us to shutoff the red "Injury" numbers that appear whenever an enemy is shot, or bleeds out due to blood loss? To me, I don't want to see that info, and it's hard to ignore it and then later exploit it by gaming the system. I'd rather not see the numbers, but rather respond to what my avatars' eyes are telling me in order to plan my tactical response.


Is there any way to have the Stealth skill appear on the very first screen so that we could invest our initial 50 points into it right away?

What would happen if we didn't spend our 50 points on that screen; would we be able to spend them through the Kill Book in-game when we get to setup our Parameters?

Of course, we could just tryout my earlier recommendations about setting all Parameters and Skills to "0," have a little note that we have to adjust in-game through the Kill Book, and perhaps avoid some frustration. But that's just me.


I have to echo the request to increase the number of comrades we can have in our squad. In the Bloody Money mod for BE5, the number was increased to 9 (which would better reflect the element-size of SF units), although it was a bit of a chore to use, because these mercs were only accessible by "targeting" them with the mouse. Of course, it'd be ideal to not only increase the squad size, but to also have them be as readily accessible as the other 6.




R@S, you're welcome for the links.

And thanks for your input regarding Clear Sky. Will order it ASAP.

Ninja2dan, your detailed firsthand expertise is certainly welcomed here!

My Dad retired as a First Sergeant in 1990, so while I'm familiar with some of this stuff I don't have the firsthand experience of an enlisted man. Perhaps I need to dig up some of his old manuals, and make them handy?

A while ago, I did some research into how camouflage works in real life on the human mind. Patterned camouflage is ideal if the wearer is not moving, and/or moving very slowly (reflecting what you said Ninja2dan), but is actually easier to spot when the wearer is moving (weird!). If one is moving, solid colors that approximate the surrounding environment makes that wearer harder to discern (weird!). I see that some countries now are painting their larger vehicles in very chunky and blocky "camouflages," which I assume is to try and take advantage of the human mind's weaknesses at seeing a set of solid-colors in motion.

Interesting stuff, nonetheless.

In regards to a Spotter class... Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Spotters qualified to be Snipers, and isn't it "common" for Spotters and Snipers to switch roles from time to time? If this is the case, then the solution would seem obvious: have binoculars available (to open up the field of vision) and have two Snipers in one's squad.

I'll try to look up those screenshots of Reloaded elsewhere on this board. Thanks for the tip.

And I have to agree with R@S, the man is as good a listener as he is a designer. In fact, I'd argue that you can't have one without the other!

Every great modding endeavor I've ever contributed to has had leadership with good ears, a solid brain, and, of course, generosity by giving so much to the community for free!

If only the Real World could operate like a modding team, eh?

[Ninja2dan]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Perhaps I need to dig up some of his old manuals, and make them handy?

It would depend on which MOS he served as. I served as both 11B (Infantry) and 13B (Field Artillery), and still have access to a large portion of my old field manuals. I was also an instructor for several courses, and have TM's, FM's, STP's, etc for quite a few MOS's other than my primaries. The question is really going to be which type of reference materials would be useful for the modding "team" (R@S and any other coders, animators, model artists, etc).

If anyone does need a particular reference item, I can find a way to upload it. If I don't have it myself, and it's not on the restricted list, I'm sure I can get it. Just bare in mind that a lot of material is either still restricted, or has been placed back on the restricted list since 9/11. Just because a manual cover states "Approved for public distribution" doesn't mean it still has retained that status now, so care must be made to ensure the material is legal for public viewing.

A while ago, I did some research into how camouflage works in real life on the human mind. Patterned camouflage is ideal if the wearer is not moving, and/or moving very slowly (reflecting what you said Ninja2dan), but is actually easier to spot when the wearer is moving (weird!). If one is moving, solid colors that approximate the surrounding environment makes that wearer harder to discern (weird!). I see that some countries now are painting their larger vehicles in very chunky and blocky "camouflages," which I assume is to try and take advantage of the human mind's weaknesses at seeing a set of solid-colors in motion.

The majority of modern camouflage patters have been designed to blend into the environment from various distances, even when the wearer is moving at a "light" speed. But it doesn't matter how good the camo is, anyone running across a field is going to be spotted. So yes, rapid movement even in camouflage is going to give your position away. But if moving slowly and precisely, as Snipers are trained to do, your camouflage can keep you nearly invisible even at a close range. In other words, no swatting at mosquitos.

In regards to a Spotter class... Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Spotters qualified to be Snipers, and isn't it "common" for Spotters and Snipers to switch roles from time to time? If this is the case, then the solution would seem obvious: have binoculars available (to open up the field of vision) and have two Snipers in one's squad.

Correct, the Spotter is nothing more than a regular Sniper really. They both have the same training, although in many circumstances the Spotter is the junior of the two. While both soldiers will often swap out roles to keep from getting fatigued or "tunnel-vision", the senior member of the sniper element is usually the primary shooter.

The Spotter's role is actually a lot more than most movies or games care to show. Obviously the Spotter "spots" targets for the Sniper, but he is also responsible for assisting in target detection and identification, and helping maintain security. Very often you'll see the Spotter armed with an M16A2/M203, which is very effective at helping break contact or engage multiple enemies faster than the Sniper's bolt-action. Even if the Sniper is armed with a semi-auto, their magazine capacities limit their effectiveness if they were compromised.


In a game like this though, I wouldn't really see the point in having two characters that operate as a team having the same Sniper-type skill sets. I would prefer to have my second team member (the Spotter role) trained in decent grenade-launcher skill, good observation/hearing/detection skills, but generally wouldn't need as much focus on long-range precision marksmanship. If you have both members of your sniper team engaging enemies through highly-magnified optics, then your Spotter's supporting capabilities just went out the window.

I'd probably just throw a Scout-type of soldier in as my spotter, get him skilled up with locating and observing targets from a distance, and make sure he is capable of accurate long-ranged UGL fire. If he ever does need to fire his primary weapon, it's most likely going to be automatic fire at close- and medium-ranged targets, and he'll need to rely more on rapid movements, reloads, and quick target transitions instead of slow, precise, long-ranged shots that the Sniper is known for.

Other skills that might be useful for a "spotter" type of role might be some good "engineering" knowledge to deploy defensive countermeasures such as AP mines, or is capable of cutting through fences or picking locks to allow the sniper element to access certain sniper hides.

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

First, no CTDs, even after Leveling Up to Level 1. No double video plays, and all in all, I'd have to say that some pretty annoying headaches are gone. THANK YOU!

Thank you, it's a load off to know that

Originally Posted by Kyle

Is there any way to add a Settings option that would allow us to shutoff the red "Injury" numbers that appear whenever an enemy is shot, or bleeds out due to blood loss? To me, I don't want to see that info, and it's hard to ignore it and then later exploit it by gaming the system. I'd rather not see the numbers, but rather respond to what my avatars' eyes are telling me in order to plan my tactical response.

I dunno, but I suspect that it's hard coded, as most of the GUI is.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Is there any way to have the Stealth skill appear on the very first screen so that we could invest our initial 50 points into it right away?

Nope, hard coded.

Originally Posted by Kyle

What would happen if we didn't spend our 50 points on that screen; would we be able to spend them through the Kill Book in-game when we get to setup our Parameters?

Since that part is hard coded it would be tricky, but I could add a check to see if the skill are all 30, and if the are give the player those 50 points back. But I'm not inclined to do that, too much work for a small detail and it'll result in too much clicking.

Originally Posted by Kyle

I have to echo the request to increase the number of comrades we can have in our squad. In the Bloody Money mod for BE5, the number was increased to 9 (which would better reflect the element-size of SF units), although it was a bit of a chore to use, because these mercs were only accessible by "targeting" them with the mouse. Of course, it'd be ideal to not only increase the squad size, but to also have them be as readily accessible as the other 6.

As in BE5, the GUI can't handle that many mercs, and it causes serious balance issues. But it can be done and guineapig started on it for the outsourced mod. I can finish the job, adding an entry in the outsourcedconfig.ini where the player can set the number of mercs for himself, like choosing a numer between 6 to 20 team members. I've seen it, and here's the proof:

[Kyle]

where the player can set the number of mercs for himself, like choosing a numer between 6 to 20 team members. I've seen it, and here's the proof:

Holy cow! I thought that the limit for extra squadmates would be similar to BE5's (that's if "9" was the uppermost limit for BE5's engine), but to have 20 in 7.62!

You're right though, having that many units in the game would be awfully unbalancing, unless the number of enemy AI units scaled appropriately, but that would probably lead to computational issues for a lot of players, so...

But that would be fun to try out, nevertheless...



I'm sorry to hear about all of the hardcoding.

Well, regardless, I have no doubts that by the time this baby's done it's going to be a mod that advances the original title by a tremendous degree, and there's a lot of mods out there that can claim that, but can't prove it. This one will.

[safoolfool]

Are unit cards hardcoded? I'd love it if they were scaled down to a quarter of that. All I really need is name, time left, and health/stamina., the enormous picture and really tall health bars just don't seem necessary. That would also let you see more than 9 (or w/e) mercs at once.

Then again, even if you let the player have 15 units and the enemies have 3-4x as much I don't think it would work to well, since the maps are too damn small for having 75 people at once (that and the game would probably explode).

[Kyle]

Need help folks.

This is weird.

Until v.5, I've never had an issue with "losing" the last member of an enemy group, but since I've installed v.5 it's happened to me twice.

I deleted all of my Saves, and started over from scratch to test the game further than I did before, and once again, the last policeman can't be found.

Might this be due to...
...the Col. and his inferior leaving the station shortly after the shootout begins? The two of them have done this before numerous times, and has never been an issue, so I don't see why it would be now.

...a wounded officer crawling away to a yellow safety zone?

...DeNiro from Taxi Driver is NOT in this build. Instead of the yellow taxi, there's a red auto. Is this related in some weird way, or...?

Exasperated me!
Kyle
July 10, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by safoolfool

Are unit cards hardcoded? I'd love it if they were scaled down to a quarter of that. All I really need is name, time left, and health/stamina., the enormous picture and really tall health bars just don't seem necessary. That would also let you see more than 9 (or w/e) mercs at once.

Their pictures can be scaled down, but the engine still reserves the space for the original picture so that wont work.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Until v.5, I've never had an issue with "losing" the last member of an enemy group, but since I've installed v.5 it's happened to me twice.

I think you said a few days ago that you re-installed the game. Could it be that you forgot to turn on the "Last Enemy" in the options? That would explain your troubles

I did a little testing last night with larger player team size and decided to put the cap at 12. Through the outourcedconfig.ini one can set the number between 6 and 12 and I hope it gives the sense of freedom. The reason I dint make the cap higher is mostly due to the spawn points. If the team is too big they wont all fit and the player would be forced to spit their team when entering a sector. It would mean a lot of dragging and dropping of their name tags on the "enter town window" before entering a town. But I think 12 is more than enough and most people will have only 9 or 10 mercs, if they use this function.

I'll add the new skills the the classes today, it wont take much time. If people are interested I could release the next version of the Class System later, just let me know.

[Chortles]

Originally Posted by safoolfool

Then again, even if you let the player have 15 units and the enemies have 3-4x as much I don't think it would work to well, since the maps are too damn small for having 75 people at once (that and the game would probably explode).

There's far worse dude (or dudette, I don't ask if someone ain't telling)... I've seen a video with a claimed 1500 different and unscripted AIs (750 vs. 750) in ARMA II.

Ninja2dan, thanks for answering my questions about the hypothetical spotter build. Basically I was referring to this:

Originally Posted by Ninja2dan

Because of the limited number of squad members, it's often not going to be desirable to use a "spotter" with your sniper. In this game, snipers will usually need to operate solo. Because of this reason, I can understand where you are coming from to give a sniper the ability to quickly swap from their long rifle to a secondary weapon. But I think their primary focus should not be on dexterity or stealth as much as the skills required for precision shooting or their stamina that allows them to crawl in the prone for long distances.

As such, I was wondering if there was a way to make it more viable, i.e. to make the squad more able to "spare" a person to act as a spotter. If I had six operators to work with in 7.62, I'd most likely set aside the best at sniping and close-quarters defense to act as my sniper/spotter pair, then try to get the other four to emulate a fire team... possibly swapping out one of the two 'regular' riflemen for a designated marksman. If I could spare someone or had more people to work with, I might even add a flanker to the sniper team, as mentioned in the link.

Kyle, I believe the term you were looking for is "digital" camouflage, or "digicam," though a more accurate term would be pixelated camouflage.

R@S, personally I'd prefer a higher "hard cap" be possible in the new outsourcedconfig.INI, but 12 as a default cap sounds appropriate... both for manageability and because it's close in size to a modern Western infantry squad or section, as opposed to common video game references to a "squad" as 4 (more like a fire team) or 6 members. While I'd want the ability/option to "break the GUI" ... 12's definitely a good choice as a default/recommended, so you have my agreement on that much.

[R@S]

The reason for the low cap on team members isn,t just balance but the ability to play the game without frustration. I've been forced to lower it even more, the cap is now 11, because if the team is bigger than that, weird stuff happens, like team members leaving your team for no reason whatsoever. Of cource I want to give the player as much freedom as possible, but not at the expense of playability.

Here's the laters test version:

Class System v6 beta

Changes in v6:

- Temporarily placed Mercon on starting map

- Fixed issue with start dialog

- Removed Show Intro Movie from the OutsourcedConfig.ini

- Added a 250 point cap on all Parameters and Skills

- Added a sixth Class Skill to all classes

- Added the increased player team function in the OutsourcedConfig.ini

Let me know how it works.