Yanks and their MG's

[janpitor]

Yes, the Shvak has higher rate, but it is also true that you need more hits to down a target.

[Blackdog_kt]

So, it pretty much balances out in the long run as far as DPS (damage per second) goes, if we could assign a way to measure it.

I think that there's more to aerial gunnery than having the one round that does massive damage to a target with one hit. The mk108 does this, but i never use it unless i go against bombers. There are other things to consider, like for example ease of aiming, and i don't mean pure balistics (in which the 108 is still inferior to other lighter guns).

A gun with a high ammo supply and high rate of fire is easier to aim every single time, simply because you can afford to keep the trigger pressed a few more seconds and correct your aim by looking at the tracers. In this way, Russian guns with their high rate of fire could be easier to aim and score hits, compared to slow firing German heavy cannons.

On the other hand, having only fast firing light guns (like for example .303s) is very easy to take and correct aim, but commits you to a tracking shot, with all the dangers it brings due to target fixation.

I think that the "sweet spot" lies somewhere in the middle: a gun that fires projectiles big and powerful enough to cripple or outright destroy a fighter in less than 10 hits, while still being of low enough caliber to maintain a high ammo supply and high rate of fire to assist in aiming/correcting your shot. If the ballistics are good, it gets even better and that's why i like the MG151s a lot...it's like they are the golden middle ground.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

If the ballistics are good, it gets even better and that's why i like the MG151s a lot...it's like they are the golden middle ground.

You would like the modified 109F in this clip then

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xj7Bd8BTMY

[KnightFandragon]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

On the other hand, having only fast firing light guns (like for example .303s) is very easy to take and correct aim, but commits you to a tracking shot, with all the dangers it brings due to target fixation.

Lol .30 cal guns and smaller to me are like pickles and sauerkraut, they make me gag and throwup a little bit just seeing them mentioned......ive used them alot seeings how the Spitfire is my fav plane in IL2 and I can tell you idk how to kill anything with them. They are just barely enough to let the enemy know your behind them.......I once flew the Hurri MkIIB??(one with 12 30cals) against an empty B29 on unlimited ammo for like 20+ minutes and never shot it down before I was totally convinced that 30cals are useless and I wish I could get them off my planes. when I got done w/ that B29 it had sooo many bullet holes in it that when it got to base the ground crew coulda mistaken it for that months supply of ammo it had so many casings on it...prolly like 20,000+ rounds I put into it. Then I did the same thing to an He111 but not shooting it nearly as long but I still only shot that plane down when I think I killed the pilots. And the 30cals is my only real complaint with the Spit, good plane but its got 30cals. my next new favorite, finding out that 25 and 50% fuel makes a plane hella more manuverable is the Corsair F4U1C. I always liked the Corsair ever since I had a toy of it, it looks cool and after over a year of flying IL2 and keeping my planes at 100% fuel and seeing the Corsair as a flying rock and deeming it junk, I finally realized my awnser had been slapping me in the face all along. Soo, I lowered it to 50% fuel load and was actually able to make a Black Out inducing turn with out stalling...i was like..wow...its a mircle, low fuel settings do work....now that F4u1C is like almost my dream plane. It has good turn radius, its fairly fast and has 4 cannons.....its only problem is its engine overheats fast.

[BadAim]

Just for the hell of it, I'll throw my $.02 in. Like the old saying goes: The most effective pistol round is the one in the pistol you actually have on you when the $hit hits the fan. The same goes for aircraft armament.

While I suppose there may be some merit in arguing this or that with power or effectiveness of various guns, the fact is that men go to war with the weapons at hand. In WWII they did so with devastating effect, just about every weapon arrangement used during the war killed people effectively when used advantageously by skilled pilots.

Much like the pistol analogy, the main thing that pilots (or any kind of soldier, for that matter) demanded from their armament was reliability, as evidenced by the quick demise of the Hispano on Spitfires during the BOB. This is one big parameter that we don't have in IL2, yet one of the most important.

All that said, I prefer whatever weapons the aircraft I'm flying has, so long as they work when I press the button.

[KnightFandragon]

Originally Posted by BadAim

Just for the hell of it, I'll throw my $.02 in. Like the old saying goes: The most effective pistol round is the one in the pistol you actually have on you when the $hit hits the fan. The same goes for aircraft armament.

While I suppose there may be some merit in arguing this or that with power or effectiveness of various guns, the fact is that men go to war with the weapons at hand. In WWII they did so with devastating effect, just about every weapon arrangement used during the war killed people effectively when used advantageously by skilled pilots.

Much like the pistol analogy, the main thing that pilots (or any kind of soldier, for that matter) demanded from their armament was reliability, as evidenced by the quick demise of the Hispano on Spitfires during the BOB. This is one big parameter that we don't have in IL2, yet one of the most important.

All that said, I prefer whatever weapons the aircraft I'm flying has, so long as they work when I press the button.

All that is true but my definition of work is a gun that can kill the enemy quickly....dogfights are fast, and you dont have much time to aim and down targets before the next target appears or you got a guy on ur ass drilling you so I like guns that kill fast so I can get the kill, and move on. its sooo annoying when you shoot the shit out of something or someone and they dont go down so your stuck shooting them while someone kills you....and while in RL the 30cal was prolly an effective weapon in Il2 it sucks...imo it needs to be upped a little bit, its just a crappy gun. The only thing ive killed w/ a 30cal in less than every round I have was a Zero w/ a frontal engine hit from a Spit MKI. Ive downed a few other fighters but I think it was from either jamming the controls or killing the pilot from the front...but that takes awhile.

[David603]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

All that is true but my definition of work is a gun that can kill the enemy quickly....dogfights are fast, and you dont have much time to aim and down targets before the next target appears or you got a guy on ur ass drilling you so I like guns that kill fast so I can get the kill, and move on. its sooo annoying when you shoot the shit out of something or someone and they dont go down so your stuck shooting them while someone kills you....and while in RL the 30cal was prolly an effective weapon in Il2 it sucks...imo it needs to be upped a little bit, its just a crappy gun. The only thing ive killed w/ a 30cal in less than every round I have was a Zero w/ a frontal engine hit from a Spit MKI. Ive downed a few other fighters but I think it was from either jamming the controls or killing the pilot from the front...but that takes awhile.

Set the MG convergence very short (I use 140m) and then fire from around that range, aiming for the wing roots, cockpit or engine of your target.

Even a Gladiator with 4 .303s or a Bf109D with 4 7.62mm MGs can bring down a lightly armoured opponent in a well aimed 2-3 second burst.

[BadAim]

I suppose your right about the 303 not being very effective against aircraft, it was designed to kill people, it was never very good at destroying aircraft. I don't really think that the 303 in game is all that far off, it always took a steady hand and nerves to take down a bomber with them. It's been pointed out before that the value of sending a bomber home shot to pieces with half the crew dead or wounded may well be greater than a strait up loss, it's certainly just as good if the plane is written off and the crew is rattled to the point of being ineffective.

My point at any rate was that it was the "weapon at hand", nothing more.

The .50 (I'm talking about the round here) on the other hand was designed to penetrate tanks (albeit thinly armored ones), and proved to be effective at "tearing $hit up" including airplanes. I can't tell how many times I've had my 109 shredded by a single burst from a P51. The round is still used today to penetrate heavy targets and "tear $hit up".

The fact is that the .50 (and the excellent Browning machine gun that fired it) was also the weapon at hand and it did it's job well, given the targets it was asked to engage.

[KnightFandragon]

Originally Posted by David603

Set the MG convergence very short (I use 140m) and then fire from around that range, aiming for the wing roots, cockpit or engine of your target.

Even a Gladiator with 4 .303s or a Bf109D with 4 7.62mm MGs can bring down a lightly armoured opponent in a well aimed 2-3 second burst.

I have my convergence set to between 220 and 270...I play against AI and they usually dont let you get much closer then .30 away and still have a clean shot. Usually if they let you get .14 away im dodging the plane instead of aiming at it, trying not to slam into it haha. I guess maybe my convergence could be part of my problem.....I just put in a number that sounds good at the time and go with it. Also, I know the 30s can down lightly armored targets..i downed a Zero with a split second burst head on from a Spit MkI...I hit F3 for the fly by camera view and saw the Zero in the background flaming in a downward angle...was thinking to myself.."No way did a 30cal just kill something that fast" haha. I know close range helps w/ penetration but its hard to get to like 15 and below for me and still be aiming. If I get close enough like .15 it usually ends up in me getting greedy followed by a spectacular fireball.