BSM Rank and Class System

[safoolfool]

Hey, I figured I'd chime in on this. Firstly, I think the classes are a great idea, as is leveling up in general.
That said, I personally would avoid a test. Almost all of the time when I start a game I have a plan for what I want to do, and so the test is a mere formality, and I chose the answers explicitly to get the class I want. I don't know for sure, but I imagine that's how most people go about it. In that case, a test seems like a waste of your effortm it isn't going to show people what they want, they'll just know what they want so the test is pointless and a waste of time.

This was especially true in BE5, where the questions ended up clear cut and pointless. How would you get into your house if you locked yourself out? a) break the door with my macho strength b) sneak in the back c) use my dexterity to pick the lock d) wait until a locksmith comes and spend time practicing first aid. How would you impress a girl? a) win an arm wrestling competition b) sneakily cop a feel c) show her my dexterity by dancing d) win a surgery competition.

Basically, it seems to me that letting the player chose everything is easier for both them and you. A game like morrowind worked it into the game in an immersive way: the police steward was asking you questions, like what did you do before being arrested (I was a fighter/thief/mage) when were you born (under the sign of the warrior/rogue/wizard) and could you sign your name (sure, my name is R@S McModder). The tests weren't helpful, but they made you fit in. In 7.62 you don't really need character immersion.

[R@S]

Yeah, I agree with you, the more straight forward it is, the better. My main thought was of course to add perks, but as Kyle said before, one has to go all in or not go at all. The proposed way was a compromise, and a bad one at that. But since I finally learned how to externalize these things, I could have a turn on/off function in the ini file.

[Kyle]

You were the one asking for more freedom when setting the skills and parameters, are you regretting that already You CAN re-distribute the parameters at the game start, you'll get the "Decrease" option once you've chosen a class. Once you actually decreased a parameter you'll have some points to spend and you'll get the "Increase" dialog option as well. And distributing Skill point s already done in the character creation screen, no need to make one similar to the Parameter start system.

Trust me, I'm more than happy that (thus far) you're pursuing my admonitions to give the Player as much freedom as possible when fashioning their characters. My main concern is causing too much confusion, and I'm just trying to conceptualize the easiest path to getting there. Having some attributes adjustable on one screen and then another without being able to see what classes are available, nor see what the consequences of choosing a class may bring, well, to me that's confusing. And confusion generates frustration, and the one thing that I would love to see happen is people go, "Wow! What an awesome and easy to use mod! Let me tell my buddies..."

Alright, so as I earlier presumed, engine limitations are handicapping the class selection and generation system. So, what if we deliberately "lock down" the avatar selection process like this (if this is doable)...

Pick your avatar's appearance. Change the avatar's name if it's so desired, and then make it so NONE of the Parameters and Skills can be changed on THAT screen. In fact, I'd set ALL of the numbers for Parameters and Skills to 0 so that there's no mistaking that adjusting these attributes on this screen is impossible. Have a statement that says something like, "After selecting your avatar's appearance and name, proceed in-game to select its class, and then establish its Parameters and Skills by opening up the Inventory screen, and right-clicking on the Kill Book."

Now, if something like that can be established, there's no confusion.

Then, when the Kill Book is right-clicked on, I'd have an option that says, "Generate Characteristics."

The first set of menu options could be entitled, "Select Class." The classes would have their Parameters/Skill-sets displayed, and I'd also supply an option whereby the Player could look up the definition as to what those Parameters/Skills effect. I feel that this is important, because I was quite shocked to read that Energy determines how long a character can hold his/her weapon in a readied position. I wouldn't have been able to just deduce that on my own. Nor would I have been able to figure out that Reaction has to do with responding/recovering from being shocked. Initially, I thought that it had something to do with how quickly one can direct one's weapon towards a different target. Guessing at what does what increases confusion and thus frustration. I prefer to be proactive on this matter design-wise, and avoid negativity whenever possible.

After the class is selected, the new menu option could be entitled "Set Parameters." And again, I'd supply an option to see what the Parameters/Skills impact.

And then the last menu option would be made available, "Set Skills," and also supply a definitions option.

Since I don't know how all the parameters and skills actually affect the gameplay, I only suspect, writing this might make me a liar And I think that if the player has to figure that out for himself, playing this game many times might actually be more fun. But with your help we could create a FAQ so that the player can check what the attributes does and how this new system works. Since I'm the one behind the code, I already know too much and you'll be better at figuring out what questions a new player might have about it.

I've spent the last 12 years of my life being a teacher, so it's innate in me to avoid confusion whenever possible. So I'm sorry if I sound like a broken record on these kinds of design issues! I certainly understand your concern with not knowing "for sure" what every Parameter/Skill does/doesn't do, but even if we give the "textbook definition" of what they are in-game, along with a Disclaimer in the F.A.Q., I still feel that this would provide a more satisfying experience to the players. I'm also basing my conviction on this because of my decades' worth of role playing experience, and without exception, EVERY friend who ever played a random-centered game such as D&D first, immediately loved the crystal clear immediacy and control of GURPS. Sure, through no fault of our own, we might not be able to give a "crystal clear" view of all that there is to know, but if we give them a "frosted glass" access, I'm confident that they'll be happier with it and the knowledge that there's a degree of mystery to it will most likely bring them back for more replays.

And I'd be happy to write a F.A.Q. for the good of the mod and the community.

I think I've mentioned this before, I haven't changed or disabled the old system. One can still train the attributes as before, but with this system one can increase some values that were hard or impossible to train before. The main goal of the BSM is to increase the fun, to me that means more time fighting and less time doing all the other "boring" stuff, like running around on the map with a full backpack

I must have overlooked the fact that the old system is still intact. I think that this design decision of yours is even more brilliant than before.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle View Post
Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?
I guess you'd have to ask the devs, oh wait, you can't Deadhead and the HLA guys made some berets and new headgear, and from what he told me it's a process that requires a lot of time and skill. Altering all the merc head models, editing their AZP archives and a whole lot more. Since I'm only one guy with limited time and no skill in creating/altering 3d objects, I haven't bothered with it.

Wow. Reading about all of the horror getting something like cloth-hats in sure makes it clear that such feats should be left at the very bottom of the To Do list. What irritates me is when games are marketed with features that aren't supplied in-game. I mean, the very cover of the game's package shows a boonie hat wearer. It's trivial in the Grand Scheme of things, but nevertheless, it still gets under my skin a bit.

Have you tried the alternative WEAPONINFO_ALT file? Just backup the old WEAPONINFO file, rename the WEAPONINFO_ALT to WEAPONINFO and start a new game. That file uses the work of Incapacitator and is more "realistic" than the vanilla one. But it also make the game so much harder...

Ahh, that's VERY GOOD to know! That's definitely a point that should be detailed in a F.A.Q. I've already backed up/overwritten the original file with the alternative one.

We would only have to have a few perks available, and the player will only get one. If there was a way to lock the activation of said perks to the keybord, it would make the use of them mush easier. I know there's a way to check for keyboard input, but afaik it only works in the dialog screen.

The idea of this is intriguing to me. Perhaps the best way to go about this is to supply in the character creation process one last menu option that displays itself after the Skills have been set, something that could be entitled "Perk Selection." I'd offer at least a few choices per class type (some of these could be shared between classes), if not all of them, and the Player could select only one. I'd also supply an option that could be entitled, "None selected," so that if a Player wants to skip something that seems a little too fantastical they can avoid it altogether. Kind of like being able to skip over the science fiction aspect of Jagged Alliance 2. I really applaud the game designers' decision to make this an option for the players.

What makes this all the more tempting to me is that it would sure entice players to play through the game again with a different Perk in effect. Perhaps a new Perk selection could be earned at Level 7, then another at Level 14, and then another at 28, and so on with the doubling. A cap could be put on the maximum number that's attainable, perhaps 3? These Perks, if they're not properly balanced with negatives, could get enormously powerful in combination within a short matter of time. Perhaps it's best to just limit it to one choice, as the consequences for it game-balance wise would certainly be more manageable. For that matter, each of these Perks could scale-upwards at level 7/14/28... Hmm...much to think about!

I've incorporated both Outsourced mod and Merc Consultant into the BSM source and I've added the option to disable the new class system in the former. To make it fair for those who play with the class system disabled I've increased the preset parameters with an additional 50 points. I'll upload the next version later tonight, now I need a nap, crap and eat

Sounds great. I hope you had a great poop after your nap. Personally, I'd do the poopin' first as it'll ensure a more restful rest.

Alright, time to test Beta v.4!

[Kyle]

R@S,

SOOOO tired!

Deleted my prior Saves. Installed v.4. "Blue Sun Mod" loading window appeared, but the typical 7.62 golden screen never had a chance to be seen because I had a CTD.

I had a hunch that it might be due to my using the WEAPONINFO_ALT (which was renamed properly), so I installed my backup of the original WEAPONINFO and I restarted the game. That worked! But...I wasn't able to try out the more realistic weapon settings!



I really wanted to experience that!


OTHER BUGS
The introductory video played TWICE; once immediately after I started a New Game, and again after I selected the avatar.

Once the Kill Book is opened up, the title of the book is misspelled as "KillBook." It needs a "space" between the "Kill" and the "Book."

With the first time usage of the Kill Book to setup one's Parameters and Skills I was offered up just ONE chance to Decrease Parameters, but since I didn't have the Parameter settings memorized I chose instead to "Check Parameters & Skills."

After I checked them out, I selected "Back" to return to the previous menu offerings, and I was disappointed to note that the "Decrease Parameters" option was no longer listed.

So I went to Load the start of the "Bus Map," and discovered that it wasn't auto-saved. That would've been helpful, as typically whenever someone enters a map that's automatically done for the Player.

With no other option left, I tried to start a New Game, which automatically caused a CTD and a "Crash Screen" report window was lovingly waiting for me.

I was then forced to restart the game from scratch, and right after I finished doing what I could on the "Select-Avatar" screen, I clicked on Health so that I could decrease it and the introductory video immediately started playing--this confused me, to say the least. I hit Escape to cut short the video, and found that my menu options had changed; what was new was that an "Increase Parameters" option had been now added. While I was able to figure out what to do, it was disorienting, and if I was new to the mod, with the CTD episode, and then the videos suddenly playing, and the menu options changing during one of the playbacks, well, that would make quite nervous about proceeding further...

Later on, I noticed that this limitation in being able to look back and forth at one's overall listings and then going back to adjust them is absent once one Levels Up to Level One. These menu settings are...
1) Spend Points
2) Check Parameters & Settings
3) Close
And these worked just fine without there being any CTD events. Can the very first initial Character Creation menu be altered to work as it does once one Levels Up to Level One?



SUGGESTIONS
I'd add a statement so that the players are aware that the 6 points they get at leveling up are not the only means that they'll be earning points, since the old system is still also in effect. Maybe something along the lines of...
"These 6 points are in addition to any increases one may gain as part of the default in-game rewards system."

When establishing my starting skill levels, I keep missing adjusting Stealth because it can't be seen. I overlook the fact that one can scroll the menu options further down. If there's a way to add a downward pointing arrow, or the words "More options below" or... That would help in this accidental oversight from occurring in the future. The "Stealth" listing is also missing from the Unit description page (the last visible entry is "Doctor," which in itself is also confusing since the Skill that one can adjust is listed as "Medic").

In regards to the above, I can't recall if Professionalism is also a Skill that has issues with being seen?

The opening text for when one is just about to start creating one's character is a bit confusing. Perhaps consider altering it to...
"Welcome to Algeira!
You've been contracted by Mr. Alexey Rezvi to locate Ippolit Bashirov. You are to promptly meet Mr. Rezvi at the hotel in Puerto Viejo to receive details regarding this mission. The guide that Mr. Rezvi hired for you, Paquito, is missing along with your equipment! It would be prudent to check on his whereabouts after Mr. Rezvi's been contacted.

1) Continue with character creation..."


Banking is BACK baby!
Yay! It took but a minute to figure out how to enter large denominations with the banker. Oh, what a sight to see! I haven't yet completed enough time to see if the $1,000 I deposited will have accrued the proper 5% interest, but I am excited to see that this option is back, and am already confident that it'll be working fine.

Time for bed!
Thanks for the great work. The dialogue options displaying one's current levels in Parameters and Skills sure helps to speed things up when investing one's points. Another big improvement.

Snore!
Kyle
July 7, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

I had a hunch that it might be due to my using the WEAPONINFO_ALT (which was renamed properly), so I installed my backup of the original WEAPONINFO and I restarted the game. That worked! But...I wasn't able to try out the more realistic weapon settings!

Don't worry about it, I've prolly forgotten to add a weapon or something in that file, I'll fix it for the next test version, it wouldn't be that hard.

Originally Posted by Kyle

The introductory video played TWICE; once immediately after I started a New Game, and again after I selected the avatar.

I think I made a booboo and has the start video option playing twice, both in my start replace phrase and in the outsourcedconfig files. I think you can fix this right away by setting the IntroMovie "0" in the outsourcedconfig.ini. But I have also turned it oof the the source code for the next version.

Originally Posted by Kyle

With the first time usage of the Kill Book to setup one's Parameters and Skills I was offered up just ONE chance to Decrease Parameters, but since I didn't have the Parameter settings memorized I chose instead to "Check Parameters & Skills."

After I checked them out, I selected "Back" to return to the previous menu offerings, and I was disappointed to note that the "Decrease Parameters" option was no longer listed.

I think you went one step to far when you were browsing the first increase/decrease menu. Once you select "Done" the ability to decrease parameters is gone for good. This dialog screen looks like this:

1) Increase Parameters
2) Decrease Parameters
3) Check Parameters
4) Done // Once you select this option, you can't go back. The character creation is complete.
EDIT: I've changed the last dialog option to "Done (complete character creation)" to minimize confusion about how sever this choice is


I've now added a list of the attributes in this screen showing what attributes are tied to this class you selected. I think that'll make it easier to choose what parameters to increase/decrease.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Later on, I noticed that this limitation in being able to look back and forth at one's overall listings and then going back to adjust them is absent once one Levels Up to Level One. These menu settings are...
1) Spend Points
2) Check Parameters & Settings
3) Close
And these worked just fine without there being any CTD events. Can the very first initial Character Creation menu be altered to work as it does once one Levels Up to Level One?

The CTD events at the parameter increase/decrease screen could be caused by the dialog tree limitation, or rather, my attempt to circumvent it. We'll have to see if this occurs in the next test version, if it does I might have to try a different way. The weird thing is, I never had any CTD's when testing it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

When establishing my starting skill levels, I keep missing adjusting Stealth because it can't be seen. I overlook the fact that one can scroll the menu options further down. If there's a way to add a downward pointing arrow, or the words "More options below" or... That would help in this accidental oversight from occurring in the future. The "Stealth" listing is also missing from the Unit description page (the last visible entry is "Doctor," which in itself is also confusing since the Skill that one can adjust is listed as "Medic").

In regards to the above, I can't recall if Professionalism is also a Skill that has issues with being seen?

You snooze, you lose I could divide the dialog options so that they all are display without having to scroll, but keep in mind that this is also tied to the screen resolution. As it is now it displays all options for me, but I'm running it on the highest resolution available. Both stealth and professionalism isn't available to check anywhere in the vanilla game, but since stealth is an important skill, I've added it to my dialog screens. I hope that in the future the players will use the kill book rather than the journal tab to check the current levels.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Banking is BACK baby!
Yay! It took but a minute to figure out how to enter large denominations with the banker. Oh, what a sight to see! I haven't yet completed enough time to see if the $1,000 I deposited will have accrued the proper 5% interest, but I am excited to see that this option is back, and am already confident that it'll be working fine.

I think the 5% DAILY interest calculations might be to generous. I would either have to lower it, mebbe to 3%, or make the interest calculated on a weekly basis. But this needs testing before anything is altered.

I've added your suggestion to the start dialogs, thanks for making that for me.

[Kyle]

R@S,

I'm happy to hear that WEAPONSINFO_ALT is probably an easy fix. I'm quite sure that once players discover that there's an .ini that supplies more realistic weapon performance settings that a good chunk of them will migrate to use the alternate settings. That will please the "hardcore" crowd.

The "intro video playing x2" fix will be most welcome. Yay!

Your changing of just "Done" to the statement that also specifies that by "Done" the Player is agreeing to completely end the character creation process is a very wise move.

For some reason, it didn't register that the screen resolution could be affecting just how much text I can see on screen at one time. Hah!

Yeah, I'd have to agree with you that if the interest rate is set to 5% a day that they would be too generous. There wouldn't even be a little bit of a challenge buying the newest equipment just by waiting around and letting the bank do all of the earnings-work. If it's compounded daily, then a rate of 2-3% would be better, or if it's compounded weekly, then the 5% might do. I agree with you that this is one feature that should be tested more thoroughly before making alterations to it. Here in the US one's lucky to find a bank that will even give an extremely meager 1.2% to a member's savings account, and that's for a month's worth of time. I'd assume that since the region's so poor, it's desperate for capital, and banks would probably be more generous to a client that's likely to bring a lot of it into the country.


SUGGESTION
I'd supply two more options to the Character Creation and Leveling Up menu options...
Return all Parameters to previous levels. and...
Return all Skills to previous levels.
If a Player becomes dissatisfied with a number of his choices, it might just be quicker and easier to start from the previous settings for either all of the Parameters or all of the Skills. This way, having to do scores of "Decrease" clicks can be avoided, and reduce a Player's frustrations.


I'm happy that you feel that my dialogue suggestions were sound ones. Always happy to assist where I can.

Looking forward to the next release, as always.

Yours,
Kyle
July 7, 2010

[R@S]

Here's the next test version:

Class System v5 beta

I've fixed the WEAPONINFO_ALT and it was as I suspected, I'd forgotten to add the XM-18 grenade launcher and that caused the CTD.

I've also divided the parameter selection page into 2 pages, since you reported a CTD I checked the log myself, and iven if I dint get a CTD there was a warning about scrolling. Once I divided those screens the warning disappeared and I hope your CTD's will as well.