BSM Rank and Class System

[R@S]

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll make the whole system easier to understand, promise. But it's still only the first beta, and I have already improved it a bit. I've changed the starting map, you won't start in Puerto Viejo anymore. I was planning to start with the "Choose Class" dialog where I'll explain how it works. The player will then be told to find Alexey Rezvi to continue the game. I'll also give the player some starting equipment depending on what class is selected, like camo kit when scout, sight if sniper and so forth. I think that'll increase the "feeling" of the class system and might entice people to choose other classes than scout or sniper. But it's still only in my head so feel free it offer more of them, hm, suggestions

The Outsourcedconfig mod might be removed, it interferes with some of the latest game settings. I've contacted guineapig about it, and if we're lucky he might still have the source code for it. Then I can deactivate the stuff that is incompatible but keep the stuff that isn't, some of which is really important to minimize the frustration(like civies taking one shot and everybody gets hostile)

I think I'll skip the perks, since I'll be working on adding maps from Reloaded and making new missions, that'd take too much time, and I only have a limited amount of that. Your campaign ideas might be very useful when doing that, so feel free to send me what you've got, my own creativity is pretty dried up on that front by now.

Your CTD issues isa common one, and I think it might have to do with some folder being set to read-only. Since there are some blood layers added when shot, and those might be the cause, try turning off blod in your game settings(E6Config.exe, the first tab, Advanced button). Let me know if this fixes it.

And please don't speak German, I only know a few words and there might be some misunderstandings Please, I'm a Swede, and not very proud of that fact

[Kyle]

R@S,

You're welcome for the feedback; it's the very least that I can contribute for the return that we're going to get from this thing.

I didn't realize just how ambitious your plans are in regards to what you're trying to accomplish, which is pretty substantial already! Porting over Reloaded's maps? Wow! I'm practically ready to worship you man!

Moving the game's starting point to a new location with an "Introduction to the New System" mission is a very smart move because of its consideration of the players' needs. Being well educated is always important, and absolutely necessary to enjoying a game as sophisticated as 7.62 (which is going to get raised even further more with this mod).

I applaud your decision to start players out with an item that's closely related to their class selection. Not only will this be a great "hook" to tempt players to try one class over another, but I also strongly feel that it will almost guarantee repeated replays of the game because of the desire to simply try out what the other classes have to offer. Brilliant!

I didn't realize that the Outsourcedconfig.ini did so many important things for the game. My fingers are crossed that the source code is still preserved so as to make your life easier.

Let me thank you in advance for your willingness to consider my campaign suggestion. I promise you that it has what I feel is a pretty interesting twist not just story-wise but also in regards to strategic considerations.

I'll probably need several days just to get the basic plot done, as my nephew's birthday is tomorrow (quite a drive to get there too) and Sunday is the Fourth of July, with big family plans for that.

Yeah, I feel "so free" with my government working so hard to keep piling on trillions of dollars' worth of bank debt onto the backs of us ordinary citizens! Woo-hoo! Please keep giving me, my children, and my grandchildren, more debt that isn't ours to be enslaved to! There's just so much to be happy about!

Sorry for the therapeutic rant...

Alright, time to go. Keep your eye on your PM. I hope that its contents will bring a smile to your face.

Yours,
Kyle

July 2, 2010

[R@S]

Kyle, take your time, I have things to do before I can start with new missions anyway.

Class System v2 beta

Here's the second version of the new class system, I've made a few improvements and added the class based starter equipment. You still have to find the drunkard Paquito to get it, but you'll find some stuff in the car at the first map that will have to due until you do.

To complete this new system I have to get cracking on the starter attributes of the different characters. I did the math and discovered that they all don't have the same amount of point, it ranges from 1155 - 1179, Cameron having the lowest total amount. It's weird, I almost always selected him and he turned out to be the one with the lowest skill points, go figure.

There are several ways to go about this, like giving everybody the same total amount of points and then spend them based on their appearance, like sex, size or something like that. It's the one I'm leaning towards.

Or they could all have the exact same starter stats, bar the strength/agility thingy based on character sex that I mentioned earlier. It's a bit crude and not a very creative way to go.

Or I could let them keep all their Parameters as is and only change their skills, giving them all the same total amount but redistribute the skill points so that they all have the same in those only. It's a compromise but it might work if one spends the point right.

Feel free to post your input.

Once the new skill system is finished I might start on the new Global AI, something I started on for the ARM Project. My idea is to create a dialog screen where you can do all the Holding cities, Placing and paying militia with a few simple clicks on the mouse. It would remove the need for town mayors and would make the whole economic system of it much easier to grasp. Once again, input is welcome

[Kyle]

R@S,

I'm really looking forward to trying out v. 2 of the beta sometime tonight. Unless you say otherwise, I'm assuming that every time a new update comes out we should start a brand new game.


Your efforts with ARM are highly commendable, and will certainly positively alter the entire gaming experience in a positive way.

It gives more power to the player, and that's a good thing.



I too noticed that the starting point totals were sometimes substantially different from one character to another. Like you, I prefer playing Cameron, but didn't know he had the lowest point total of all of them!

Again, being a GURPS devotee, my strong preference would be to simply allow the player the option of choosing any avatar he/she wants, have them virtually be a "blank" slate, and spend points to set their Parameters and Skills.

If I'm not mistaken, the classic Jagged Alliance 2 also had an avatar-creation system similar to what I've just described above. The reason why I prefer this approach, is that while it may seem "less creative" than other approaches, the point to remember is that when going with a system as just described, most, if not all, of the creativity, is in the player's hands, and the more options one gives the player, the more freedom, and hopefully, the more enjoyment he/she will have while fashioning the avatar.

This also simultaneously creates a sense of "ownership" over the avatar, helping to transform them from a "mere" avatar into an actual character fashioned within the player's imagination.

In fact, if it's at all possible, I'd even avoid naming the available avatars. Simple "title" them something like...
"Avatar: Male 1,"
"Avatar: Male 2,"
"Avatar: Female 1,"
and so on and so forth...

Just make sure that there's a screen by which the player can then type a personalized name to his/her newly selected avatar. See, another example of empowering the player, and giving him/her another opportunity to express their own creative capabilities.

I wish I knew how flexible this engine is in regards to modding. While I'm totally in favor of giving a lot of creative power to the players, I'm also in favor of emulating realism as in a title such as this, it heightens one capabilities of becoming immersed in the virtual world.

So, for example, I am in favor of having the player "stuck" with having to deal with gender-based advantages/disadvantages. In GURPS, the stronger one becomes, the larger one is, and the larger one is, the more likely he/she is in regards to producing noise, being seen, look more or less intimidating, etc., etc.

If this can also be done within the confines of 7.62's engine, then I say let's take a shot at it, and see how it goes.

To be more specific with gender-based advantages/disadvantages...

Let's say that all male avatars start with the same basic Parameters and Skills levels. The same holds also true for the female avatars.

But the men are stronger than the women, but (as you suggested earlier) the women will have more agility.

To be fair, I'd advise that when all is said and done with setting up the most basic Parameters, that the point totals are equal between the genders, but not distributed the same.

Here's an example of what I mean...

[IMG][/IMG]
Oops! I reversed the figures for women for Dexterity and Agility! Dexterity SHOULD be 53 and Agility SHOULD be 57!

I'd give both men and women an equal number of points to spend in adjusting their Parameters and Skills. I would be careful to give "X" points for Parameters and "Y" points for Skills, meaning that one can not take Parameter points and spend them on Skills, nor vice versa. Every role playing system I've ever participated in has Parameters as being more important than Skills, because Parameters affect so many different game mechanics at the same time. To allow players to be able to take Skill points and spend them on Parameters at the start of the game would most likely mess up the game balance in major ways.

It would also be nice to allow players to lower one's levels below the STARTING point by up to 30%, and then get those points to spend elsewhere (again, lowering the level of a Parameter by 7 points means that those 7 points can only be spent on other Parameters, and not be diverted to Skills). This way, if a player wanted a really ignorant, slow-learning, yet very strong Soldier, they could do so by reducing the Intelligence by 30% below the starting figure.


Is there a way to have a [+] and [-] menu button at the end of each Parameter/Skill entry, and a running total of the number of points left to spend displayed somewhere nearby, so that making adjustments is an easy thing to do?


Let me know if any of the above is confusing, and I'll try my best at describing it better.



And before I go, I'm happy to take more time in writing up a campaign-proposal. Things are pretty crazy around here right now. And having two kids makes working on any of this a nighttime-only endeavor.

I don't play violent games around them, as they're still far too young to understand what's going on, or to appreciate the full consequences of what they're witnessing.



That's it for now. Off to the beta and then to bed. I'll give feedback ASAP, but tomorrow's going to be a most busy day.

Yours,
Kyle
July 3, 2010

[Kyle]

R@S,

Have a bug for you. Testing out whether or not it'll be recognized that I should level up.

At 23 kills nothing happened. When I checked the Kill Book I saw this...
[IMG][/IMG]

Good night!
Kyle
July 4, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Just make sure that there's a screen by which the player can then type a personalized name to his/her newly selected avatar. See, another example of empowering the player, and giving him/her another opportunity to express their own creative capabilities.

you can change the name of the avatar in the character creation screen where you spend the 30 point on skills.

And you're totally right, there should be 2 sets of points, one for parameters and one for skills. It means a lot of re-writing of the code, but I think it's worth it. I regret not thinking about this when I first wroth those 1500 lines

I think giving all the characters the same amount of skill points distributed among the attributes, but with small differences based on size and sex is the way to go. It seems we're in agreement there and I'll start editing the preset.ini files once I'm finished with changing the points system.

I could create the +/- system you mentioned, and have that available only tat the game start. But we need a minimum number for both skills and parameter, or just having a max on how many points a par/ski can be lowered.

The bug you encounter is a prime example of my laziness, I just stopped the level up process at 23 and then forgot the "else" thingy in the code. I already fixed that yesterday and there's now 63 levels and the "else" issue has been fixed.

EDIT: Due to th engine limit of the dialog tree, it causes a CTD when it gets too long, I had some problems implementing the new start distribution system. But with some coding jujitsu and mental wrestling I found a solution

I dint put a cap on anything, so the player can redistribute the Parameter values freely. I think we can give all the characters, both male and female, the exact settings in the parameters as long as they all have the exact total amount. Maybe setting all the parameters to 70 and let the player create the character as wanted. Talk about freedom, eh. But it could also lead to a lot of clicking at the start of the game, so I'll let the testers try the new system and offer changes if it gets too much of a click-fest.

Here's what I'm thinking:
HP 90
EN 90
EYE 70
HRN 70
STR 70
STM 70
DXT 70
AGT 70
REA 70
INT 70

EXP 30

SHT 30
SNP 30
GFT 30
HWP 30
THR 30
HtH 30
CAM 30
SAP 30
MED 30
STH 30

Total: 1070

I've also increased the number of levels, there's now 100 levels which means if the player kills around 10000 enemies he'll reach that. But that sounds unlikely, but you never know, some people like killing

I'll upload the next version in an hour or so, still need to edit the Preset.inis and do a quick test session.

Oh, and I forgot to say - Happy Independence Day to you Kyle, and all the other Americans that might read this.

EDIT 2:

Class System v3 beta

[Kyle]

BUGS
I received my first 7.62 Blue Screen of Death, with an Error Report that read, “…ati 2cqag.dll… Page_fault_in_nonpaged_area…”

When leveling up, the word “Strength” is misspelled.


SUGGESTIONS
Typically, when creates a character, the Parameters are selected and set based on the class that one has selected. With Beta v.3, one cannot adjust the Parameters, and one has to set the skills before one has even selected a class.

Character-creation typically looks like this (that is, if it’s not based on a randomized system, such as Dungeons & Dragons):
(I.) Select class after being informed of what the advantages/disadvantages are, then…
(II.) Set one’s attributes, and finally…
(III.) Set one’s skills.

If the above structure can’t be done, then I advise to supply an informative statement on the Avatar-Selection screen, something along the lines of, “…The classes and their Skill-Sets are… On this screen one may only adjust the starting Skills, but once in-game, one will need to access the Kill Book through the Inventory screen, and from there select one’s class and then be able to adjust Parameters…” This informative statement will help Players avoid undue frustration because they’ll know what to expect as part of the modified process.


I’d also supply where it can be readily seen at least a brief summation of what each Parameter affects, and what each Skill does do/not do. This will help players spend their points with more confidence.

When it comes to displaying current Parameter/Skill levels, I’d supply the level they’re at immediately next to the listed attribute, but before any written descriptions of what it does. For example…
Reaction [78] Influences how quickly one can respond to shock.
Strength [103] Specifies how much can be carried & its impact on speed.


I’m tired, so I can’t recall for sure if this is being done in the current build; if a Parameter is reduced then those points are made available for only Parameters, and are not shared in any degree with the number of points that are available for Skills. The same is also true vice versa.



QUESTIONS
How does Intellect impact the game now that the new system’s in place? I know before that it had a sizeable impact on gaining experience points, but now what does it do/not do?

In the first town, the Police Station has at least one window that does not behave as if it’s transparent. If you’re looking at the front of the Police Station, it’s the window to the left of the double-door entrance. The enemy can see in, but my avatar cannot see anything other than the exterior environment. Am I the only one experiencing this, or…?



EQUIPMENT
Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?

The reason why I ask is that head cover could definitely play a role in how a player is able to perceive the environment. None of the above would offer any protection towards rounds or shrapnel, but…

Boonie Hat: +5 camouflage (breaks up the shape of the head), +5 seeing (due to offering steady shade)
Kevlar-type Helmet: +2 seeing (the small brim offers some unsteady shade), -15 hearing (noisy and blocks the proper reception of sounds), and +whatever it is for protection against rounds/shrapnel.
Etc.

Also, I noticed in the BSM thread that observations have been made regarding how weapons’ attributes are currently set. If the postings are accurate, then it would be nice to address these inconsistencies. It might not be as much of a “headache” as it sounds, especially if awesome mods such as BloodyMoney for Brigade E5 are consulted. BloodyMoney used the terrific work that was done for the superb Immortal Badass mod, and I know that throughout IB’s development there was a lot of attention spent on trying to get the weapons’ attributes consistent and based on real life values. Now the reason why I bring up BloodyMoney first is that the creator of Immortal Badass highly lauded it.

Alright, have to hit the rack.

Thanks for the hard work. The advances you’ve made from v.2 to v.3 are noticeable and appreciated! I'm happy with the huge pool of money you gave us up front, so that we can hire mercs as we deem so we can test the system harder and more thoroughly. Smart.

Kyle
July 6, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Typically, when creates a character, the Parameters are selected and set based on the class that one has selected. With Beta v.3, one cannot adjust the Parameters, and one has to set the skills before one has even selected a class.

Character-creation typically looks like this (that is, if it’s not based on a randomized system, such as Dungeons & Dragons):
(I.) Select class after being informed of what the advantages/disadvantages are, then…
(II.) Set one’s attributes, and finally…
(III.) Set one’s skills.

f the above structure can’t be done, then I advise to supply an informative statement on the Avatar-Selection screen, something along the lines of, “…The classes and their Skill-Sets are… On this screen one may only adjust the starting Skills, but once in-game, one will need to access the Kill Book through the Inventory screen, and from there select one’s class and then be able to adjust Parameters…” This informative statement will help Players avoid undue frustration because they’ll know what to expect as part of the modified process.

Due to engine limitations I can't mod anything before a new game is actually started, and the GUI is hard coded and can't be changed, at least for now. The Parameters distribution screen should load on startup, if it doesn't there might be a problem with your installation. Maybe I should write a better description in that screen, but I like to think that the players are smart people and will figure out how this works pretty fast. And if anyone makes a mistake in the character creation screen, starting a new game to correct it isn't that hard to do.

You were the one asking for more freedom when setting the skills and parameters, are you regretting that already You CAN re-distribute the parameters at the game start, you'll get the "Decrease" option once you've chosen a class. Once you actually decreased a parameter you'll have some points to spend and you'll get the "Increase" dialog option as well. And distributing Skill point s already done in the character creation screen, no need to make one similar to the Parameter start system.

Originally Posted by Kyle

I’d also supply where it can be readily seen at least a brief summation of what each Parameter affects, and what each Skill does do/not do. This will help players spend their points with more confidence.

Since I don't know how all the parameters and skills actually affect the gameplay, I only suspect, writing this might make me a liar And I think that if the player has to figure that out for himself, playing this game many times might actually be more fun. But with your help we could create a FAQ so that the player can check what the attributes does and how this new system works. Since I'm the one behind the code, I already know too much and you'll be better at figuring out what questions a new player might have about it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

When it comes to displaying current Parameter/Skill levels, I’d supply the level they’re at immediately next to the listed attribute, but before any written descriptions of what it does. For example…
Reaction [78] Influences how quickly one can respond to shock.
Strength [103] Specifies how much can be carried & its impact on speed.

Great idea, and I've already added the number in the dialog screen for all the attributes. The description is not necessary, or at least I think it's not.

Originally Posted by Kyle

I’m tired, so I can’t recall for sure if this is being done in the current build; if a Parameter is reduced then those points are made available for only Parameters, and are not shared in any degree with the number of points that are available for Skills. The same is also true vice versa.

Yeppers, that's how it works. But you only get one chance to decrease any parameters and that has to do with creating a character, skills are never decreased since they are already very low(30) and this could cause some serious balancing issues, especially at the beginning af the game.

Originally Posted by Kyle

How does Intellect impact the game now that the new system’s in place? I know before that it had a sizeable impact on gaining experience points, but now what does it do/not do?

I think I've mentioned this before, I haven't changed or disabled the old system. One can still train the attributes as before, but with this system one can increase some values that were hard or impossible to train before. The main goal of the BSM is to increase the fun, to me that means more time fighting and less time doing all the other "boring" stuff, like running around on the map with a full backpack

Originally Posted by Kyle

In the first town, the Police Station has at least one window that does not behave as if it’s transparent. If you’re looking at the front of the Police Station, it’s the window to the left of the double-door entrance. The enemy can see in, but my avatar cannot see any
thing other than the exterior environment. Am I the only one experiencing this, or…?

Never noticed that myself, but I suspect it has to do with the map meshes and what kind of material the devs used when they made it. And no, nothing can be done about it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Why aren’t boonie hats, berets, head wraps, etc., available in the game?

I guess you'd have to ask the devs, oh wait, you can't Deadhead and the HLA guys made some berets and new headgear, and from what he told me it's a process that requires a lot of time and skill. Altering all the merc head models, editing their AZP archives and a whole lot more. Since I'm only one guy with limited time and no skill in creating/altering 3d objects, I haven't bothered with it.

Originally Posted by Kyle

Also, I noticed in the BSM thread that observations have been made regarding how weapons’ attributes are currently set. If the postings are accurate, then it would be nice to address these inconsistencies. It might not be as much of a “headache” as it sounds, especially if awesome mods such as BloodyMoney for Brigade E5 are consulted. BloodyMoney used the terrific work that was done for the superb Immortal Badass mod, and I know that throughout IB’s development there was a lot of attention spent on trying to get the weapons’ attributes consistent and based on real life values. Now the reason why I bring up BloodyMoney first is that the creator of Immortal Badass highly lauded it.

Have you tried the alternative WEAPONINFO_ALT file? Just backup the old WEAPONINFO file, rename the WEAPONINFO_ALT to WEAPONINFO and start a new game. That file uses the work of Incapacitator and is more "realistic" than the vanilla one. But it also make the game so much harder...

I've incorporated both Outsourced mod and Merc Consultant into the BSM source and I've added the option to disable the new class system in the former. To make it fair for those who play with the class system disabled I've increased the preset parameters with an additional 50 points. I'll upload the next version later tonight, now I need a nap, crap and eat