BSM Rank and Class System

[R@S]

hehe, yeah, once I know exactly what I wanna do, there isn't much that can stop me from doing it.

I'll consider raising the cost for Reaction to 3, but I need more time testing the system to make my final judgement. The situation you're describing is, at least by the game engine, associated with the adrenalin which is tied to the experience level of the player. If the adrenalin level gets too high, the bullet spread gets very wide and civis might get caught by those stray bullets. I'm not sure, but I think the Reaction skill controls how fast you raise your weapon. But it's easy to check by using the "cheatlvl" function, I'll do that tonight when I gget home.

While working I had a few other ideas, here's the best of them:

Perks! What you call "Apocalypse Fire" I call the "Beserker" perk. For a short period of time, 1-2 minutes, the skills that causes this "bug" will be raised and the player will be able to cause mayhem. Other perks I have in mind is "Quick-Draw McGraw", "Eagle Eye" and "Tank". Feel free to tell me not to do this, or give suggestions on other perks that might be fun to have.

[Kyle]

R@S,

Cool!

Just to be clear, I've NEVER made adjustments to the outsourced.ini file. So, if this mod does interfere with said file because a player has changed its default settings, I wouldn't know it.


SUGGESTIONS

Clarify
Once I opened up the Kill Book, it took me a bit of clicking to figure out what was going on in order to Level-Up. I honestly feel that with a few more words, such frustrations can be dramatically reduced and enhance the enjoyment of the mod. With that, here's my first suggestion...

(1) Offer the following options when Leveling-Up:
Class-Based Parameters and Skills
Class-Based Perks (if implemented, see below for more)
All Other Parameters
All Other Skills


Avoid abbreviating Parameters and Skills whenever possible. If abbreviations have to be used due to display limitations, then I'd certainly always supply an option entitled "Key to Abbreviations."


(2) In the Read Me, I'd consider adding the following directions to clarify and ease things for those new to the mod:
Important Points Regarding the BSM Class-Based System
(1) The player must start a new game. Feel free to backup the old Saves.
(2) Select one’s desired avatar.
(3) Adjust the avatar’s beginning Skills.
(4) Start the game.
(5) After the very first and unavoidable dialogue interaction is over, one will need to access their avatar’s Inventory and then right-click on the black-covered “Kill Book” in the lower window of the Inventory screen. Select “Show kill statistics” and then select your desired class type.
(6) Every time a leveling-up has been earned the player will be notified by an in-game message.
(7) To spend one’s newly earned points, once again go to the Inventory screen to gain access to one’s “Kill Book.” Right-click on it and select the appropriate options...
( Rinse, wash, and repeat. Oh, and HAVE FUN!


Perks
My feelings towards this are pretty mixed. It might be "easy" to generate some of these, but there are inherent risks of having them. Such as...

...will the AI have access and the capability to use them?
...will there be enough of them to create a "universe" where they comfortably fit? If there's too few of them, then they'll seem contrived, and if there's enough of them, then they're going to be compared to Fallout's superb implementation of them. And, if that happens (and it will), then it's highly likely that in spite of our best efforts, we're going to fall far short. Fallout is simply one of the best games ever made, and to be held to such high expectations...!

If we go the perks route, then I'd say it's imperative to have enough to avoid feeling contrived. So, then we're stuck being compared to Fallout's system.

My advice? If a perks system is going to be created, we might as well draw as much as we can from The Master, and carefully consider what can be "ported over" from Fallout. They're not only extremely well designed, but are also usually quite humorous in a very dark and twisted way.

I have to wonder if development time would be far better spent by investing it in creating new equipment, and/or new missions/campaigns, and/or do both.

Perhaps the AI are free from having any perks until the player decides to start purchasing them for his own/comrades' avatars?

Going the perks route is, I feel, going to open up a whole can of worms.

That said, I do have a few suggestions for perks:
(1) Berserk should be kept confined to its classic definition, which is for hand-to-hand combat. Traditionally it should temporarily elevate Strength, Reaction Time, Hit Points, grant High Pain Threshold (the ability to temporarily "shrug off" damage that's received), an increase in the number of melee attacks that one can make, and the ability to be "immune" to being shocked by the sudden appearance of enemies or by the number of enemies. All of these sound great, but there should be a severe penalty after the Berserker's Rage wears off, such as terrible fatigue, suddenly being shocked by the loss of the bonus Hit Points along with any Hit Point loss due to receiving damage, and being lethargic (one's movement is reduced AS WELL AS the number of normal attacks one can make), and one's ability to react are also penalized till the "exhaustion" wears off and one's Parameters return to normal.

(2) There's a number of ways that one could explain the sudden ability to fire off extra rounds. Here's mine...
“Lucky” Misfire—whether Jerry-rigged or purely by happenstance, you have a knack at getting your weapons to fire off extra rounds at just the right moment.
There would be NO bonuses to hitting one's target. All that this perk would do is temporarily increase the firing rate of one's weapon. Firing a single-round would produce two rounds, burst fire would release 30% more rounds than before (rounded up), and automatic fire would be increased by 50%. The length of time that this perk would last is 1 min. The drawback (and I strongly feel that there should always be drawbacks when designing perks so as to keep them interesting and balanced) would be that for the following minute, one's weapon would be overheated, and would have a lower rate of fire than normal. This would mean that during this minute that semi-automatic fire would be unavailable (this would also apply to bolt-action rifles), burst fire would be reduced by 30%, and automatic fire would be reduced by 50%. Also, overheating will increase the odds of jamming by 25% and misfiring by 25%. So, one would have to apply this perk wisely.

(3) Extra-Penetration would temporarily allow rounds to pass more easily through all types of materials, including bodies. I don't even know how feasible this is, because just like BE5 before it, it seems that 7.62 only allows for a tiny degree of round penetration around doorways and windows. I've yet to see a round penetrate through a body and inflict damage to another person who is behind that one. I'm not going to supply any particulars regarding this perk as I'm imagining it because if it's not even possible I don't want to waste the time detailing it. If it is possible, I'll throw some details out...

That's all for perks ideas from me for now. Again, perhaps it'd be more advantageous to lay a perks system aside, and instead see how equipment enhancements and missions/campaigns could alter the game for the better (especially if the Ecomod is tightly integrated)...


Equipment Enhancements
I really like a lot of the suggestions made by Archangel which can be found here: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showpos...87&postcount=5

I don't necessarily agree with all of the details, but the general direction for most of his ideas are well thought out. I also feel that a lot of these could be done with but a few cosmetic changes to already available equipment.

For example...
Darken an ordinary canteen, and maybe put a decal on either side of it an image of a bendable drinking straw (like the ones available at nearly any restaurant). This specialized canteen allows its user to be able to drink from a connected rubber hose that can be clipped on fabric near the neckline of its wearer. When its wearer gets thirsty, a drink of water can be acquired by sucking on the end of the hose near the wearer’s mouth. Allows one to replenish 10% of one’s depleted stamina and keep one’s hands on one’s weapon.

I'd also consider reducing how quickly drinking from an ordinary canteen completely refreshes one's Stamina. In my opinion, it's way too fast. A swig from a normal canteen should, at most, restore 25% of one's Stamina, so several swigs would be needed to get back up to 100% if one was severely exhausted.


Mission/Campaign Ideas
I've got a campaign idea that I think would be very interesting to create for 7.62, but I'd like to avoid sharing it publicly, as it would do a lot to remove the element of surprise and story/character development. If you're open to programming a Campaign whose storyline/events are plotted out by someone else (such as myself ), let me know and I'll PM you a very basic plot that I feel would be pretty interesting to experience.


Bugs
The game was quite unstable, especially for the first 45 minutes of the game. I encountered numerous CTD's, virtually all of them related to my avatar being shot dead. Note that I did NOT have any comrades as part of my squad at the time. These CTD's were the first ones that I've ever had while playing 7.62.


Alright, I hope that you've found this report detailed enough to be truly helpful.

I REALLY enjoyed the amount of control that I now have as a player in advancing my desired Parmeter and Skill levels. There weren't any "immersion" issues because I was able to justify within my own mind why the skills I selected were advancing.

The next time that I'll play (probably tomorrow night) I'll use the cheat code to give myself extra points to see what might happen.

Good Night (or should I say "Gute Nacht" oder "Guten Morgen?"),

Kyle
July 1, 2010

[R@S]

Thanks for all your suggestions, I'll make the whole system easier to understand, promise. But it's still only the first beta, and I have already improved it a bit. I've changed the starting map, you won't start in Puerto Viejo anymore. I was planning to start with the "Choose Class" dialog where I'll explain how it works. The player will then be told to find Alexey Rezvi to continue the game. I'll also give the player some starting equipment depending on what class is selected, like camo kit when scout, sight if sniper and so forth. I think that'll increase the "feeling" of the class system and might entice people to choose other classes than scout or sniper. But it's still only in my head so feel free it offer more of them, hm, suggestions

The Outsourcedconfig mod might be removed, it interferes with some of the latest game settings. I've contacted guineapig about it, and if we're lucky he might still have the source code for it. Then I can deactivate the stuff that is incompatible but keep the stuff that isn't, some of which is really important to minimize the frustration(like civies taking one shot and everybody gets hostile)

I think I'll skip the perks, since I'll be working on adding maps from Reloaded and making new missions, that'd take too much time, and I only have a limited amount of that. Your campaign ideas might be very useful when doing that, so feel free to send me what you've got, my own creativity is pretty dried up on that front by now.

Your CTD issues isa common one, and I think it might have to do with some folder being set to read-only. Since there are some blood layers added when shot, and those might be the cause, try turning off blod in your game settings(E6Config.exe, the first tab, Advanced button). Let me know if this fixes it.

And please don't speak German, I only know a few words and there might be some misunderstandings Please, I'm a Swede, and not very proud of that fact

[Kyle]

R@S,

You're welcome for the feedback; it's the very least that I can contribute for the return that we're going to get from this thing.

I didn't realize just how ambitious your plans are in regards to what you're trying to accomplish, which is pretty substantial already! Porting over Reloaded's maps? Wow! I'm practically ready to worship you man!

Moving the game's starting point to a new location with an "Introduction to the New System" mission is a very smart move because of its consideration of the players' needs. Being well educated is always important, and absolutely necessary to enjoying a game as sophisticated as 7.62 (which is going to get raised even further more with this mod).

I applaud your decision to start players out with an item that's closely related to their class selection. Not only will this be a great "hook" to tempt players to try one class over another, but I also strongly feel that it will almost guarantee repeated replays of the game because of the desire to simply try out what the other classes have to offer. Brilliant!

I didn't realize that the Outsourcedconfig.ini did so many important things for the game. My fingers are crossed that the source code is still preserved so as to make your life easier.

Let me thank you in advance for your willingness to consider my campaign suggestion. I promise you that it has what I feel is a pretty interesting twist not just story-wise but also in regards to strategic considerations.

I'll probably need several days just to get the basic plot done, as my nephew's birthday is tomorrow (quite a drive to get there too) and Sunday is the Fourth of July, with big family plans for that.

Yeah, I feel "so free" with my government working so hard to keep piling on trillions of dollars' worth of bank debt onto the backs of us ordinary citizens! Woo-hoo! Please keep giving me, my children, and my grandchildren, more debt that isn't ours to be enslaved to! There's just so much to be happy about!

Sorry for the therapeutic rant...

Alright, time to go. Keep your eye on your PM. I hope that its contents will bring a smile to your face.

Yours,
Kyle

July 2, 2010

[R@S]

Kyle, take your time, I have things to do before I can start with new missions anyway.

Class System v2 beta

Here's the second version of the new class system, I've made a few improvements and added the class based starter equipment. You still have to find the drunkard Paquito to get it, but you'll find some stuff in the car at the first map that will have to due until you do.

To complete this new system I have to get cracking on the starter attributes of the different characters. I did the math and discovered that they all don't have the same amount of point, it ranges from 1155 - 1179, Cameron having the lowest total amount. It's weird, I almost always selected him and he turned out to be the one with the lowest skill points, go figure.

There are several ways to go about this, like giving everybody the same total amount of points and then spend them based on their appearance, like sex, size or something like that. It's the one I'm leaning towards.

Or they could all have the exact same starter stats, bar the strength/agility thingy based on character sex that I mentioned earlier. It's a bit crude and not a very creative way to go.

Or I could let them keep all their Parameters as is and only change their skills, giving them all the same total amount but redistribute the skill points so that they all have the same in those only. It's a compromise but it might work if one spends the point right.

Feel free to post your input.

Once the new skill system is finished I might start on the new Global AI, something I started on for the ARM Project. My idea is to create a dialog screen where you can do all the Holding cities, Placing and paying militia with a few simple clicks on the mouse. It would remove the need for town mayors and would make the whole economic system of it much easier to grasp. Once again, input is welcome

[Kyle]

R@S,

I'm really looking forward to trying out v. 2 of the beta sometime tonight. Unless you say otherwise, I'm assuming that every time a new update comes out we should start a brand new game.


Your efforts with ARM are highly commendable, and will certainly positively alter the entire gaming experience in a positive way.

It gives more power to the player, and that's a good thing.



I too noticed that the starting point totals were sometimes substantially different from one character to another. Like you, I prefer playing Cameron, but didn't know he had the lowest point total of all of them!

Again, being a GURPS devotee, my strong preference would be to simply allow the player the option of choosing any avatar he/she wants, have them virtually be a "blank" slate, and spend points to set their Parameters and Skills.

If I'm not mistaken, the classic Jagged Alliance 2 also had an avatar-creation system similar to what I've just described above. The reason why I prefer this approach, is that while it may seem "less creative" than other approaches, the point to remember is that when going with a system as just described, most, if not all, of the creativity, is in the player's hands, and the more options one gives the player, the more freedom, and hopefully, the more enjoyment he/she will have while fashioning the avatar.

This also simultaneously creates a sense of "ownership" over the avatar, helping to transform them from a "mere" avatar into an actual character fashioned within the player's imagination.

In fact, if it's at all possible, I'd even avoid naming the available avatars. Simple "title" them something like...
"Avatar: Male 1,"
"Avatar: Male 2,"
"Avatar: Female 1,"
and so on and so forth...

Just make sure that there's a screen by which the player can then type a personalized name to his/her newly selected avatar. See, another example of empowering the player, and giving him/her another opportunity to express their own creative capabilities.

I wish I knew how flexible this engine is in regards to modding. While I'm totally in favor of giving a lot of creative power to the players, I'm also in favor of emulating realism as in a title such as this, it heightens one capabilities of becoming immersed in the virtual world.

So, for example, I am in favor of having the player "stuck" with having to deal with gender-based advantages/disadvantages. In GURPS, the stronger one becomes, the larger one is, and the larger one is, the more likely he/she is in regards to producing noise, being seen, look more or less intimidating, etc., etc.

If this can also be done within the confines of 7.62's engine, then I say let's take a shot at it, and see how it goes.

To be more specific with gender-based advantages/disadvantages...

Let's say that all male avatars start with the same basic Parameters and Skills levels. The same holds also true for the female avatars.

But the men are stronger than the women, but (as you suggested earlier) the women will have more agility.

To be fair, I'd advise that when all is said and done with setting up the most basic Parameters, that the point totals are equal between the genders, but not distributed the same.

Here's an example of what I mean...

[IMG][/IMG]
Oops! I reversed the figures for women for Dexterity and Agility! Dexterity SHOULD be 53 and Agility SHOULD be 57!

I'd give both men and women an equal number of points to spend in adjusting their Parameters and Skills. I would be careful to give "X" points for Parameters and "Y" points for Skills, meaning that one can not take Parameter points and spend them on Skills, nor vice versa. Every role playing system I've ever participated in has Parameters as being more important than Skills, because Parameters affect so many different game mechanics at the same time. To allow players to be able to take Skill points and spend them on Parameters at the start of the game would most likely mess up the game balance in major ways.

It would also be nice to allow players to lower one's levels below the STARTING point by up to 30%, and then get those points to spend elsewhere (again, lowering the level of a Parameter by 7 points means that those 7 points can only be spent on other Parameters, and not be diverted to Skills). This way, if a player wanted a really ignorant, slow-learning, yet very strong Soldier, they could do so by reducing the Intelligence by 30% below the starting figure.


Is there a way to have a [+] and [-] menu button at the end of each Parameter/Skill entry, and a running total of the number of points left to spend displayed somewhere nearby, so that making adjustments is an easy thing to do?


Let me know if any of the above is confusing, and I'll try my best at describing it better.



And before I go, I'm happy to take more time in writing up a campaign-proposal. Things are pretty crazy around here right now. And having two kids makes working on any of this a nighttime-only endeavor.

I don't play violent games around them, as they're still far too young to understand what's going on, or to appreciate the full consequences of what they're witnessing.



That's it for now. Off to the beta and then to bed. I'll give feedback ASAP, but tomorrow's going to be a most busy day.

Yours,
Kyle
July 3, 2010

[Kyle]

R@S,

Have a bug for you. Testing out whether or not it'll be recognized that I should level up.

At 23 kills nothing happened. When I checked the Kill Book I saw this...
[IMG][/IMG]

Good night!
Kyle
July 4, 2010

[R@S]

Originally Posted by Kyle

Just make sure that there's a screen by which the player can then type a personalized name to his/her newly selected avatar. See, another example of empowering the player, and giving him/her another opportunity to express their own creative capabilities.

you can change the name of the avatar in the character creation screen where you spend the 30 point on skills.

And you're totally right, there should be 2 sets of points, one for parameters and one for skills. It means a lot of re-writing of the code, but I think it's worth it. I regret not thinking about this when I first wroth those 1500 lines

I think giving all the characters the same amount of skill points distributed among the attributes, but with small differences based on size and sex is the way to go. It seems we're in agreement there and I'll start editing the preset.ini files once I'm finished with changing the points system.

I could create the +/- system you mentioned, and have that available only tat the game start. But we need a minimum number for both skills and parameter, or just having a max on how many points a par/ski can be lowered.

The bug you encounter is a prime example of my laziness, I just stopped the level up process at 23 and then forgot the "else" thingy in the code. I already fixed that yesterday and there's now 63 levels and the "else" issue has been fixed.

EDIT: Due to th engine limit of the dialog tree, it causes a CTD when it gets too long, I had some problems implementing the new start distribution system. But with some coding jujitsu and mental wrestling I found a solution

I dint put a cap on anything, so the player can redistribute the Parameter values freely. I think we can give all the characters, both male and female, the exact settings in the parameters as long as they all have the exact total amount. Maybe setting all the parameters to 70 and let the player create the character as wanted. Talk about freedom, eh. But it could also lead to a lot of clicking at the start of the game, so I'll let the testers try the new system and offer changes if it gets too much of a click-fest.

Here's what I'm thinking:
HP 90
EN 90
EYE 70
HRN 70
STR 70
STM 70
DXT 70
AGT 70
REA 70
INT 70

EXP 30

SHT 30
SNP 30
GFT 30
HWP 30
THR 30
HtH 30
CAM 30
SAP 30
MED 30
STH 30

Total: 1070

I've also increased the number of levels, there's now 100 levels which means if the player kills around 10000 enemies he'll reach that. But that sounds unlikely, but you never know, some people like killing

I'll upload the next version in an hour or so, still need to edit the Preset.inis and do a quick test session.

Oh, and I forgot to say - Happy Independence Day to you Kyle, and all the other Americans that might read this.

EDIT 2:

Class System v3 beta