Oleg - Spitfire Cockpit.

[major_setback]

Originally Posted by MD_Wild_Weasel

At the end of the day i would rather Oleg get the spitfire Historically correct than pretty tanks(unless i can drive them btw) but at the same time through out the history of Il2 many people have ever changing opinions about WW2 and its birds. I think that we/he needs to find the middle ground so that he can get on with his work. Perferction takes time and money.
my two pennies.

There are scores of posts on this forum alone telling Oleg that 'this and that' are completely wrong (by me included). He can't possible be expected to read them all, and even if he did, it is asking way too much that he should be able to perceive which of those posters has a relevant point (there are a lot of mistaken nay-sayers here). He simply doesn't have the time to both research the issues and correct them (all).



I agree, it is time to get the thing finished. The worst problems can be patched over later.

[BOBC]

MD_Wild_Weasel. There was a bloke there that REALLY knew his stuff and was able to identify any part of the aircraft mangled or not. Maybe with a little research you could locate this guy and ask his opinion.

I know them well

I have been studying spit Mk1 30 yrs and the cockpit for 25 yrs. Not just from books, far from it, from hands on experience. Touching panels that flew in the BoB. I know my cockpits.

Major Setback...it is asking way too much that he should be able to perceive which of those posters has a relevant point

I did email him and indicate my experience to him. The points I raised should have been enough to convince him I know my Mk1.

Another way to look at this by the way is as follows.
What are the most obvious differences between a Mk1 and a MkV.
They are:-
Two tier pedals
small diameter clock standing proud of inst panel surface.
One fuel gauge
Only Volts not Volts and amps below it.
Box type radio port wall.
No landing lamp controller
Bakelite seat and not grey green aluminium.
All black bakelite deep recessed trim wheel.

Apart from the radio currently this is the cockpit in the sim !

Purchase and play the dvd Spitfire Frontline Fighter and get to see awesome rare Mk1 BoB aircraft being fully serviced. The complete footage, Thorn EMI featured only part of this before. Followed by re-arming, E pens etc. See the Mk1 cockpit, your only way of ever doing so ! You'll even see filling the screen the Trim wheel of the Mk1, remember this is by now an R serial, only X run to go...and the large clock, and amps gauge and two fuel gauges, and the correct starter button, (not mentioned that error before..not so obvious but its there, like the fact that the compass card holder was anodised aluminium and not black, in this video and all those dug examples).

It would I still feel, be right to release the sim with a Mk1 cockpit and not expect users to wait for a Mk1 fix. I pay money for a BoB sim, I want to see a Mk1 as I fly it and not be told I have to wait, surely thats a reasonable expectation when buying a BoB sim, never get this hassle with BoB WoV.

pilots at that time developed there own flying stlyes and preferences would have had the engineers make subtle changes to their flying machines

Those pedals were not fabricated in squadron hangars, they are castings.
Talking to someone that has a lifetime of BoB digs, they have never dug a two tier one yet !
Spitfire Spares say two tier used after the Mk1. they should know !

The R serialled spit in the video inspection by the way has a single tier pedal, they had the word Supermarine on the tread area. That puts L,N, P and R serialled production runs as far as this aircraft with Single Tier pedals. Only leaving X serialled production. Thats most of the BoB aircraft.
Pilots are not going to say to the groundcrew, I prefer my spit without the amps gauge, or I think I will dispense with knowing whats in the 48 gallon fuel tank, please also perfectly fill in the hole and shift the 37 to the left a little...oh and rip out the landing lamp control, and get the smaller clock that is still in development at Smiths, I fancy a smaller one....and so on.

The only mod was armour plate instigated by Dowding, addition of rear view mirrors, gun harmonising distance.

MD_Wild_Weasel I think that we/he needs to find the middle ground so that he can get on with his work. Perferction takes time and money.

Perfection ..I think asking for a Mk1 cockpit is a fair request, perfection would be demanding that the lettering saying Artificial Horizon was picked out in brass.
I still say, so as to not prolong release time, simply forget about another vehicle and spend the time on pedals, fuel gauges and clock, just those three will be a start, and make a massive difference. I just have a gut feeling we will never see this cockpit corrected. Surely of all the fixes this is the one, as opposed to a Fiat CR42. Spit fliers will be staring at these mistakes hour after hour.

I would like to hear the developers thoughts on this question of fix it to become a Mk1 and the time it takes versus adding tannoys to a hangar side or creating a this or that which may not be seen for ages in the sim unless you happen to come across it.

Perhaps a vote from thread readers..Mk1 before or after release, if ever.

I say 'before'.

BOBC

[AndyJWest]

I would like to hear the developers thoughts on this question of fix it to become a Mk1 and the time it takes versus adding tannoys to a hangar side or creating a this or that which may not be seen for ages in the sim unless you happen to come across it.

Perhaps a vote from thread readers..Mk1 before or after release, if ever.

Modifying the cockpit of a flyable aircraft would be a lot more complex than 'adding tannoys' to hangers would.

'Voting' for something where you have no idea of what is involved and no say in the decision anyway is a waste of time.

If Oleg was to make every change asked for prior to release, SoW:BoB would never get finished. Which would you rather have - a release with minor inaccuracies, or no release at all?

[TheGrunch]

I'm continually bemused by the perception among players of this sim that minor 3d corrections are hard work (probably due to the convoluted process by which modders perform these corrections due to using reverse-engineered tools), even when MG obviously have the official import and export tools and several thousand pounds' worth of software to do the job. It'd be half an hour to an hour's work for some of these people, they're professionals. It'd take far longer to do the research than the actual 3d work, and by the sound of it, BOBC's done that already.

[AndyJWest]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

I'm continually bemused by the perception among players of this sim that minor 3d corrections are hard work (probably due to the convoluted process by which modders perform these corrections due to using reverse-engineered tools), even when MG obviously have the official import and export tools and several thousand pounds' worth of software to do the job. It'd be half an hour to an hour's work for some of these people, they're professionals. It'd take far longer to do the research than the actual 3d work, and by the sound of it, BOBC's done that already.

But will it involve just a 'minor 3d correction', Grunch? If you are dealing with a clickable cockpit with working instruments, there is more than just the 3d model to consider. I don't know how much work would actually be involved, but I do know that outsiders almost always underestimate such things. If Oleg is (a) convinced it needs fixing, and (b) has the resources to do it, I can't imagine he would refuse out of principal, but holding 'votes' on what he should do isn't a sensible way to approach things.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I'm sure that I read somewhere before that the bar major errors the 3D models for BoB had been frozen. (Please correct me if I'm wrong I went searching for the post but couldn't find it! )

Given that there is only one flyable MK1 left and a handfull of Mk1's on static display I (Most having been scrapped or converted into later models) I doubt this issue will be resolved to the satisfaction of everyone.

I, never having been given the opportunity to look into the cockpit of a MK1 Spitfire, would blissfully enjoy the sim in my ignorance even if they gave us an X-Wing pit!

On the otherhand you have a variety of people who have studied some of the survivors and documentation and each have a perfectly valid though different description of a Mk1 cockpit that they would like to see implemented. Like I said not everyone is going to be happy.

Maybe if the developers could post a list of the documents/aircraft that they used as the basis for their models everyone would at least be assured that what they have modeled is an authentic representation of a MK1 Spitfire.

Just a thought

Cheers!

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

But will it involve just a 'minor 3d correction', Grunch? If you are dealing with a clickable cockpit with working instruments, there is more than just the 3d model to consider. I don't know how much work would actually be involved, but I do know that outsiders almost always underestimate such things.

Having modeled a cockpit myself for IL2, I know it's not a lot of work to change a gauge or two - and mine went through a number of corrections before getting it right.

[MD_Wild_Weasel]

@BoBc ,
"I have been studying spit Mk1 30 yrs and the cockpit for 25 yrs. Not just from books, far from it, from hands on experience. Touching panels that flew in the BoB. I know my cockpits."

You lucky git can i be your friend? LOL The closest ive got to a spit is when its being rolled out for an airshow at Duxford. I did however manage to get one of the owners to take a picture of a Spit MkvcX4h!!


ooh sorry just remebered this cocpit was for the Vb next door. I wanted a picture of the vc4 pit but the old git said"we dont touch each others planes"


If these changes are not that time consuming to correct then i really believe that they should be corrected prior to release. After all we are all after historical accuracy.

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

But will it involve just a 'minor 3d correction', Grunch? If you are dealing with a clickable cockpit with working instruments, there is more than just the 3d model to consider.

Sorry Andy, forgot I'd posted in this thread...I can't see that there is anything other than the model to consider for most of the things BOBC mentions. And where there's not minor 3d corrections to make, there's only deletions to make, which are even easier!

Two tier pedals - extremely minor 3d correction, texture and normal map to add text if necessary
small diameter clock standing proud of inst panel surface - 10 second 3d correction, texturing at a stretch if anything changed about the clock-face.
One fuel gauge - deletion
Only Volts not Volts and amps below it. - deletion
Box type radio port wall. - slightly more involved but still very minor 3d correction
No landing lamp controller - deletion
Bakelite seat and not grey green aluminium. - recolouring, maybe material/shader changes
All black bakelite deep recessed trim wheel. - minor 3d, recolouring
Just...not very much to do now that the vast majority of the work is already done. I just have to point this out because I'm sick of people pulling out their fanboy suits (I'm not putting you at the top end of that category by any means) and shouting "too much work" over 10 second fixes. Especially when they're in areas of the game that people will be constantly exposed to (well, except for the wonder-woman crowd )
It's possible that these are meant the other way around (can't remember, too busy looking at econometrics ergh), but even then, it's not a HUGE amount of work for a model that people are going to spend years looking at, an ammeter, an additional fuel gauge, and a landing lamp controller (two of which obviously don't even desperately need to be visibly functional)

[AndyJWest]

Maybe you're right Grunch. I think I was really aiming my comments more at the general 'fix everything' comments we were getting. The trouble is, there doesn't even seem to be a consensus in this thread about what a BoB Mk 1 Spit instrument panel should look like. It will be a bit difficult to make a case for changes if we can't agree what they should be.

You have my sympathy over the econometrics. Doesn't sound like fun...