How to find best Infantry weapons

[Nikitns]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

Lolfail, MP 44 isn't the real name. Its STG 44, and its an Assault Rifle, the 1st, and a few years later. Wow...The AK 47, looks a lil similar eh? Commies are just too stupid to design their own guns XD

Ya, and that is why a part of the former "commie" arms industry is the 2# biggest in the world today (arms sales from Russia is only less than from USA).

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

Ya, and that is why a part of the former "commie" arms industry is the 2# biggest in the world today (arms sales from Russia is only less than from USA).

And that industry is based around German inventions. AK 47 is a copy of the STG-44, the RPG a copy of the Panzerfaust. Russians don't invent guns they copy them.

[Crni vuk]

Pretty good and short answer about the relation of the Stgw and AK47 in my eyes.
aksville

Q: I often hear many say that the AK-47 was a direct copy of the STG44, what truth is there to this?
Really, what would a tank operator know about mechanisms needed for a gun especially the best assault rifle of all time. Do these two guns operate on the same basic concept and just simply a copy of a german design, or is the AK-47...... (2 answers - asked 18 months ago)
A: Not a "direct copy", but "heavily influenced" is probably fair
The AK-47 is not a direct copy or clone of the STG-44.



For starters, they fire a different cartridge. The AK-47 is chambered in 7.62x39mm, and the STG-44 in 7.92x33mm. Further, Kalishnikov (the creator of the AK-47) used the locking lug design of the M1 Garand and the trigger and safety group designed by John M. Browning. Finally, the AK action is a rotating bolt and the STG is a tilting bolt. So, there are clearly some differences.



That said, it seems pretty clear that Kalishnikov heavily borrowed from the STG-44. The two main pieces of evidence:



1) The overall design and form of the weapon is very, very similar. In fact, people who don't know much about guns often mistake a STG-44 for an AK-47.



2) Hugo Schmeisser, the man who designed by the STG-44, was captured by the Russians in 1945 and forced to work on weapon design for them. Schmeisser was not allowed to go home until 1952. Those seven years Schmeisser was working in the USSR match up pretty neatly with the development of the AK-47.



Kalishnikov (who is still alive), denies to this day that he copied the STG-44. And in a literal sense, he is correct. There are significant differences. On the other hand, the similarities are obvious even to someone who knows little about guns.



My personal view: Kalishnikov should get credit for significantly improving on the German STG-44. But would he have invented the AK-47 if the Germans hadn't invented the STG-44? I doubt it.

Interesting might be as well that the idea or concept of assault rifles was there long before the Stgw was designed. But the Stgw was definetly the most succesfull design

Weapons with similar use or design to the Stgw have been the Charlton Automatic Rifle, Chauchat (more machineguns actualy but they had a curved magazine and shared many principles with modern assault rifles), Fedorov Avtomat, Cei-Rigotti, Mondragón rifle or the M1941 Johnson machine gun. It is very hard to really differentiate between rifles, automatic rifles or light machineguns since many shared similar qualities. Most of the weapons mentioned used quite big calibers but there have been ideas to shorten them already in the 20s of the 1900 century. The Japanese 6.5x50mm Arisaka rifle cartridge for the Fedorov Avtomat and the 6.5x52mm Mannlicher-Carcano for the Cei-Rigotti. Though relability issues and complex mechanisms made those weapons very rare. But it was a new concept afterall.

The Ribeyrolles 1918 is as well a extremly interesting design and might come as close as possible to the concept of assault rifles.

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Obviously the AK-47 was far superior to the STG-44. But the Germans were fighting a war at the the time, they didn't have time or resources. If Germany had won WW2 the STG-44 would have likely been continuously upgraded and developed on further, just like the AK-47.

[Crni vuk]

No doubts about that. But one should not forget that the German Army adopted at some point in the 50s the G3 rifle for its newly formed army the Bundeswehr (based of the Cetme Rifle design, created with help of German engineers in Spain). The Evolution didnt simply stoped after the war and designs got further changed and improved which eventualy lead to prototypes like the Stgw45 which was the base for the Cetme rifle and thus the G3 after the war was over many engineers moved to new companies or worked for other nations in licence so different nations improved certain designs and characteristics or used it as base for new weapons like th M60 for example which includes certain aspects of several captured German small arms like the FG42, MG42 etc. The G3 and similar weapons (FN Fal, Israelian Galil etc.) can be seen as so called battle rifles with automatic fire then assault rifles which usualy have lower range and cartridges. And only after Eugen Stoners development of lighter weapons chambered for the 5.56x45mm (well more the development of his assistants but nontheless) the idea of assault rifles in the traditional sense got adopted again with the M15 and 16 family for example. I think the choice of the 5.56 was not a good one for the future. But it probably was bette compared to the rather big 7.62mm NATO which had a pretty huge recoil and was quite heavy since the soldier can carry less amunition compared to the more light weight 5.56. Though it seems future designs might eventualy go for a combination of both bullets eventualy which lead to developments like the 6.8x43mm or cartridges of similar size. But many weapons seem also to utilize the powerfull 7,62x51mm NATO again like the HK417 for its excelent stoping power and accuracy. Evolution of assault rifles though is pretty much at its peak with powder bassed weapons and its unlikely that one can expect again such huge jumps like either the Avtomat Federov, Stgw or Ak since most weapons today are already at the maximum of what is possible in effectivness and inovation I mean we look back on a history of 80 years now (aprox). But we might still see the one or other smaller improvement over time. Proboably till we get the first standart pulse or plasma rifles

[KnightFandragon]

I can prolly see the first laser weapons coming when some joker tries to come up w/ a way to solve the need for endangering resupply aircraft crew and all the extra weight of ammo as well as solution to running out of ammo period.

[Crni vuk]

future evolution already now







*hey, what about a Terminator mod for Men of War, or a sci fi game with the same focus on complexity and reliability

[Nikitns]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

And that industry is based around German inventions. AK 47 is a copy of the STG-44, the RPG a copy of the Panzerfaust. Russians don't invent guns they copy them.

What a dumb claim. STG-44 and AK-47 use completely different mechanisms.

STG-44 was the first assault rifle, so obviously it was "copied".

RPG was not a copy.

Back this up. Soviets invented loads of stuff so did Russians

[FM_Von_Manstein]

Originally Posted by Nikitns

What a dumb claim. STG-44 and AK-47 use completely different mechanisms.

STG-44 was the first assault rifle, so obviously it was "copied".

RPG was not a copy.

Back this up. Soviets invented loads of stuff so did Russians

The AK-47 is a complete copy. They look very similar, and the inventor of the STG-44 was in Russia when the AK-47 was designed.

The RPG is just a copy of the German Panzerfaust.





While they look different the concept is the same. They both fire a similar looking warhead, and are very different from other AT weapons like the bazooka. As the explosive shell is inside the tube not at the head.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

The AK-47 is a complete copy. They look very similar, and the inventor of the STG-44 was in Russia when the AK-47 was designed.

Dunno, there is not much to say to that then simply. No. It has a similarity. But that was it. The AK47 is neither a straight copy nor is it a real revolutionary new design. Its a improved weapon and combination of several known designs with a few new concepts adapted to russian needs. They learned from the SVT40 just as they did from US and German designs. The SVT while it had a good idea (more firepower for the indidivual infantry) had much issues with reliability and needed trained personal. This was not the case anymore with the AK47 (or AKM) which has a lot of tolerances to make sure its working even under the worst conditions. It includes principles from the M1 Garant just as it does from several other weapons. The similarity in look with the Stgw44 can be simply from the fact that its a functional look. I mean how many assault weapons today include a curved magazine ?

Originally Posted by FM_Von_Manstein

While they look different the concept is the same. They both fire a similar looking warhead, and are very different from other AT weapons like the bazooka. As the explosive shell is inside the tube not at the head.

The RPG is based on the concept of the Panzerfaust / Schreck and using the shaped charge as principle which also meany weapons did before the invention of the Panzerfaust as well, see British, French and German tests regarding the shaped charge.

During and before a war it happend always that certain ideas, designs or some technology was captured, studied and eventualy copied (letz better say reverse engineered its usualy never just a simple copy). Thats quite normal. The Germans did it just like the US and Russians. Its no coninsidence that after the second world war certain technologies have been seen in some way again in US or Soviet designs. I think the first soviet jet fighters have been based loosely on German Me designs. And the famous T34 and BT tank series have used Christie suspension developed by US engineers which also saw much use in British tanks. The Famous WW1 machine gun 0815 was based on the American-British Maxim MG. German scientists helped a lot (Werner von Braun) in the moon landing missions and even the Manhatten project which started around the early 40s reads like a european Namelist (Robert Oppenheimer, Enrico Fermi and more) with famous scientists working on it born or emigrated to the US from Germany, Italy, Ukraine and who knows how many other nations.

It is interesting to note as well for example that the German panzerschreck was a improved design of the US Bazooka captured in Africa where it saw one of its first use. They emidiately seen the potential of a portable infantry weapon against tanks and developed on that concept a own design with improvements like for example a shield for the gunner to protect him from any heat and blast at the front of the tupe and also a increase of the warhead from 60 mm to 88mm (designs of 45 even with 100m) which improved range and penetration power of the charge. The Bazooka which was in 45 somewhat outdated later ironicaly used the Panzerschreck for future improvemnts again to increase size and warehead ...