CheeseTactics

[Gilly]

Let's all just chill and be cool like Alaska. There's been some heated discussions on here over the past week and I hope most people will take them for, and respect them as peoples opinions. The last thing the community needs is to fragment and implode. I think most players know and respect that we all have our personal preferences when it comes to armourment and as the game allows you to, you should be able to use whatever, whenever irrespective of other people views and opinions. I guess what I'm saying is that no matter how much we write on here about our likes/ dislikes there will always be players that go against our 'IL2 morals' and as such disagree with us. I had a real red mist event earlier this week that was totally out of character and left me feeling quite down about the game, but I think Ratman summed it up nicely when he said to me 'rise above it, just play the way you play and be happy in the knowledge that your a better person than them for doing so'
I think to sum up we should all play exactly the way we want to play, be that right or wrong and remember it's just a game, 70 years ago it was real life and many good people died doing what we now consider to be just a game. Be thankful that after being rammed, rocketed, bombed or shot down you only have to wait a few seconds before you resurect and continue, back then there were no second chances. It's due to that generation that we now have the freedom to play such games and I think we shouldn't forget that.

[Kidrock40]

VERY WELL PUT GILLY ...... CHEERS MATE !!! ........ Did you all not read what I said in Waterman7 thread? Damnit I would give a lifetime worth of being killed just to have my PS3 back ..... I mean what i wouldnt give to see my left wing chewed full of holes or my engine smoking so bad i cant even see the screen or Davedog blowing me into a million little pcs with one of his rocket shots !!!! just so i could play. I'm with Gilly i dont want the community to fall apart ... one of these days ( hopefully soon ) i will have another PS3 and i want to hear EVERYONE of your cheery voices on there when your shooting me into a flat spin @ 3,000 ft. and keep hitting me till im a molten ball of fire .... OK?

[KAV]

Originally Posted by Kidrock40

VERY WELL PUT GILLY ...... CHEERS MATE !!! ........ Did you all not read what I said in Waterman7 thread? Damnit I would give a lifetime worth of being killed just to have my PS3 back ..... I mean what i wouldnt give to see my left wing chewed full of holes or my engine smoking so bad i cant even see the screen or Davedog blowing me into a million little pcs with one of his rocket shots !!!! just so i could play. I'm with Gilly i dont want the community to fall apart ... one of these days ( hopefully soon ) i will have another PS3 and i want to hear EVERYONE of your cheery voices on there when your shooting me into a flat spin @ 3,000 ft. and keep hitting me till im a molten ball of fire .... OK?

Well put Kidrock40
Seems we have forgotten how lucky we are, to be able to play this lovely game.
So all of you, please:

Forgive, forget, fly, fire and have fun............

[Kidrock40]

VERY WELL PUT GILLY ...... CHEERS MATE !!! ........ Did you all not read what I said in Waterman7 thread? Damnit I would give a lifetime worth of being killed just to have my PS3 back ..... I mean what i wouldnt give to see my left wing chewed full of holes or my engine smoking so bad i cant even see the screen or Davedog blowing me into a million little pcs with one of his rocket shots !!!! just so i could play. I'm with Gilly i dont want the community to fall apart ... one of these days ( hopefully soon ) i will have another PS3 and i want to hear EVERYONE of your cheery voices on there when your shooting me into a flat spin @ 3,000 ft. and keep hitting me till im a molten ball of fire .... OK?

[dkwookie]

I don't think threads like this do any good in here except get everyones back up. I have seen more and more negativity here over last few weeks and it's pretty crap. The other day I thought screw it let's fire up a tourny to like get some fun back into the game and while I was typing it up this thread appeared.
I figure everyone rather name and shame and argue so what's the point. Used to be there was the odd thread about new ways to play the game or tournaments but that's all gone.
Now it's name and shame and ludicrous accusations of lag switches. I will still be playing when I get chance. I shoot people down the way I wish to get shot down. With gunfire. I don't like rockets but that's my opinion so I play arcade where I can outmanouvere them

[dkwookie]

On the subject of rocket use in WW2. Branko mentioned their use in formation breaking and desperation tactics. The numbers here illustrate the numbers of planes in question:

"On 18 March 1945, 37 Me 262s of JG 7 intercepted a force of 1,221 bombers and 632 escorting fighters. "

Article continues with:

"Eventually, new combat tactics were developed to counter the Allied bombers' defences. Me 262s equipped with R4M rockets would approach from the side of a bomber formation, where their silhouettes were widest, and while still out of range of the 12.7 mm (.50 in) guns, fire a salvo of rockets. The high explosive warhead of only one or two of these rockets was capable of downing even the famously rugged B-17; a strike on an enemy aircraft meant its total annihilation"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt_Me_262

Rocket kills in BoP are always close range, tail shots on bombers and head on with fighters. The fact we have to look up air to air rocket use in WW2 proves the point that its not widly accepted view of air to air combat. Reason I play BoP over Hawks is to get to pure air to air combat, not letting high explosives do the work for me.

[gbtstr]

Well, back to the cheese tactics...

Using IL-2/IL-10s in dogfights with the intent of tailgunning all your kills, while absorbing ridiculous amounts of fire, I find a bit cheesy. It's not like it's a scenario where the IL-2 is a good choice for attacking ground targets or picking off vulnerable bombers/transports. You're deliberately choosing a flying tank so you can sit in the back seat of your armored bath tub and pew-pew (with unlimited ammo) at any fighter foolish enough to try and latch onto your six. Add to that, for such a massive plane, the IL-2 seems to have no trouble out-turning a lot of fighters - fighters designed to be nimble/maneuverable. This makes the attacking fighter's job even more tricky because it's even harder to stay out of the line of fire.

I don't really have a gripe about big bombers in dogfights. Usually, they're so slow relative to everything else, you can simply avoid them and focus your attacks elsewhere. In most cases, I'd say the person flying the bomber puts themselves/their team at a disadvantage because they now have a big, slow target that is not much good for clearing an opposing fighter off a wingman's tail.

Rockets? Eh, whatever. I don't think I've ever been hit by one launched my direction, at least not while airborne. Of course, I also don't take bombers up to do my killing. If I were to take a bomber and get schwacked by a rocket attack, I'd probably be pissed, but do I think it's a valid, sans-cheese tactic? Yes. Do I do it? No. Why pray to get lucky with a rocket attack when you can use your guns and put the SOB down? Give them some 30mm loving.

Kamikazes? Well, I hate it when it happens to me. But, I have done it to others in the heat of the game - purposefully, and accidentally.

The problem with this game and any other is just that: it's a game. If you die, you respawn - big deal. Yeah, maybe you lose a game because of that, but your xbox/ps3 doesn't burst into flames when you hit the ground, you don't suddenly get a bullet hole in you when somebody scores a pilot kill. So, what's a valid tactic in a game doesn't have to equate to a good tactic in RL because there's no fear of death. Not saying there should be actual death as a consequence of video game death, but just that everybody needs to make peace with the fact that some cheesy things fly in video games that wouldn't in reality.

I agree that the solution to most of these is to change your own tactics.

Unfortunately, even with the best/most effective tactics you are limited in the game because of the pro-Soviet bias in aircraft performance. They have the best turning aircraft, the fastest aircraft down low, and some of the most heavily armed and armored. The Americans get a broke-dick P-51, a P-47 with the top speed and maneuverability of a row-boat in reverse. The Brits get the Hurricane, which is nice unless you want to go anywhere fast, and some decent Spitfires - but, they can all be out turned by the Russkies. The Germans get a variety of flying targets to choose from. Aside from the 109G-6 and K-4, and the jets - which only have speed and firepower in their favor - they can all be out-performed in multiple ways by everything except what the USA can bring to the party.

The best plan is to take a 109K-4 (or possibly one of the jets) and stay high. BnZ every target, and avoid low altitudes and La-5/7s like the plague. If you do that well, you will live long and kill a couple. Or take the La-5/7, stay low, turn and burn and kill/die a lot.

[ButcherBird]

nice post, i got alot of laughs from parts of it...thanks

Originally Posted by gbtstr

Well, back to the cheese tactics...

Using IL-2/IL-10s in dogfights with the intent of tailgunning all your kills, while absorbing ridiculous amounts of fire, I find a bit cheesy. It's not like it's a scenario where the IL-2 is a good choice for attacking ground targets or picking off vulnerable bombers/transports. You're deliberately choosing a flying tank so you can sit in the back seat of your armored bath tub and pew-pew (with unlimited ammo) at any fighter foolish enough to try and latch onto your six. Add to that, for such a massive plane, the IL-2 seems to have no trouble out-turning a lot of fighters - fighters designed to be nimble/maneuverable. This makes the attacking fighter's job even more tricky because it's even harder to stay out of the line of fire.

I don't really have a gripe about big bombers in dogfights. Usually, they're so slow relative to everything else, you can simply avoid them and focus your attacks elsewhere. In most cases, I'd say the person flying the bomber puts themselves/their team at a disadvantage because they now have a big, slow target that is not much good for clearing an opposing fighter off a wingman's tail.

Rockets? Eh, whatever. I don't think I've ever been hit by one launched my direction, at least not while airborne. Of course, I also don't take bombers up to do my killing. If I were to take a bomber and get schwacked by a rocket attack, I'd probably be pissed, but do I think it's a valid, sans-cheese tactic? Yes. Do I do it? No. Why pray to get lucky with a rocket attack when you can use your guns and put the SOB down? Give them some 30mm loving.

Kamikazes? Well, I hate it when it happens to me. But, I have done it to others in the heat of the game - purposefully, and accidentally.

The problem with this game and any other is just that: it's a game. If you die, you respawn - big deal. Yeah, maybe you lose a game because of that, but your xbox/ps3 doesn't burst into flames when you hit the ground, you don't suddenly get a bullet hole in you when somebody scores a pilot kill. So, what's a valid tactic in a game doesn't have to equate to a good tactic in RL because there's no fear of death. Not saying there should be actual death as a consequence of video game death, but just that everybody needs to make peace with the fact that some cheesy things fly in video games that wouldn't in reality.

I agree that the solution to most of these is to change your own tactics.

Unfortunately, even with the best/most effective tactics you are limited in the game because of the pro-Soviet bias in aircraft performance. They have the best turning aircraft, the fastest aircraft down low, and some of the most heavily armed and armored. The Americans get a broke-dick P-51, a P-47 with the top speed and maneuverability of a row-boat in reverse. The Brits get the Hurricane, which is nice unless you want to go anywhere fast, and some decent Spitfires - but, they can all be out turned by the Russkies. The Germans get a variety of flying targets to choose from. Aside from the 109G-6 and K-4, and the jets - which only have speed and firepower in their favor - they can all be out-performed in multiple ways by everything except what the USA can bring to the party.

The best plan is to take a 109K-4 (or possibly one of the jets) and stay high. BnZ every target, and avoid low altitudes and La-5/7s like the plague. If you do that well, you will live long and kill a couple. Or take the La-5/7, stay low, turn and burn and kill/die a lot.

[CRANNY]

Butcher Bird are you on PS3? if so contact me on PSN Cranny70, Thanks

[Zatoichi_Sanjuro]

Originally Posted by gbtstr

Unfortunately, even with the best/most effective tactics you are limited in the game because of the pro-Soviet bias in aircraft performance. They have the best turning aircraft, the fastest aircraft down low, and some of the most heavily armed and armored. The Americans get a broke-dick P-51, a P-47 with the top speed and maneuverability of a row-boat in reverse. The Brits get the Hurricane, which is nice unless you want to go anywhere fast, and some decent Spitfires - but, they can all be out turned by the Russkies.

Once again, the Ace of Aces final was fought between two Spitfire IX's. If the Russian fighters turning rate was such an advantage they would have been picked for the final. The fact is the turn advantage for the LA over the Spit is miniscule and neutralised by the Spits superior firepower.