Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

[KG26_Alpha]

Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

No

[MikkOwl]

I have torn out and deleted anything pertaining to my IL-2 installs (main one was the steam version but had an older in my program folder as well). Went through registry with a comb to delete any mention of IL-2. Uninstalled the Logitech Profiler drivers and deleted all references to them in the registry. Uninstalled and deleted all mention of the Saitek Quadrant drivers/software. Rebooted several times. Downloaded Il-2 again from Steam, fresh. Launched (4.08m), testing it out - no change. Same bug.

However, with the joystick now having no curves set by outside programs, it was harder to get it completely centered (in order to observe the bug, especially in the cockpit). I had to look for it for a while, esp when starting airborne and camera moving around a bit, before I could certify it was still there. And it is. Sucks...

The stick is seen moving slightly as I described, when the joystick is completely centered. And it does indeed affect the aircraft flight, could be seen from outside and inside, especially when under time acceleration.

Originally Posted by Aviar

I guess when you say 'courves', you mean 'curves' (the 10 sliders on each axis). Anyway, 'curves' is the correct English spelling, if that's what you mean.

That's the spelling I was looking for, thanks for pointing it out. I kept feeling disturbed by it lately as "is this really as it should be? Feels wrong". Need to get my Firefox spelling checker plugin working again.

..I still cannot reproduce this 'bug'. Not only did I set the deadzone for all 3 axis to 50, I also set ALL the sliders (curves) to values UNDER 100%. [..] the green and red boxes stay perfectly centered.

Hmm, that is crappy for me and good for you. Did you closely observe the stick with maximum zoom on the ground to see if it moved in the slightest when joystick goes from dead center to near center etc?

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

No

Did you try it in the hardware setup screen AND in-game cockpit as mentioned in the reply to Aviar?

[MikkOwl]

After more testing, I've found that it is not as apparent with using only deadband as I suggested using. When using only deadband to test it, it does move offset, but since the stick never returns to true center this is almost impossible to notice when in the cockpit visually.

So if anyone could please try the following method and I would be very happy:

1. Set sensitivity of your roll and pitch in IL-2 to zero for the three leftmost ones, and set deadband to zero for both.

2. Step into the cockpit ON THE GROUND (do not be airborne since it is harder to verify) and zoom in on the control column/stick.

3. Move your joystick very carefully across it's center point, as if barely moving from center at all. What I see is that the column moves slightly to the left (just a bit) and slightly forward whenever the joystick is at true center. When moving away from it, the (cockpit) control column returns to true center.

If you have any external software to change the curves of your stick, set it to lowest sensitivity, as that will make it much easier to hit the centermost positions of the stick.

I just tried this with my Saitek Quadrant with nothing Logitech control-wise connected and the virtual driver bus interface disabled in the system settings even, and I observed the above.

I find it very unlikely that IL-2 would be any different on my computer compared to others', and it cannot be a hardware problem since it is only brought on by trying to use the IL-2 curves (Sensitivity) native to that application. The bug itself appears when a control input is at true center, which implies that there could be a coding mistake where the curve sensitivity processing is turned off if the controller is centered, as 'there is no need for it', and it re-engages as soon as the controller leaves center. But for some reason what is considered 'center' for the processed input is slightly offset, perhaps the exact same distance that is required for the controller to move before the curve processing is re-enabled again.

[MikkOwl]

That plane has trims - but I presume you mean you move the stick around gently near the center at the same time as described in the reproduction steps and yet it flies absolutely straight, even in time accelleration.

As you said though, you followed the instructions and could not reproduce what I see. That's good enough for me.

I presume the steam version (which is the one I bought) of IL-2 is somehow defunct, as that's the only thing file wise that can differ between us presuming a clean install and all.

[MikkOwl]

In the example you provided, it could be either way, because the P-80 has aileron and rudder trim (if I'm not mistaken). If you are trimmed to fly straight with stick centered, it would be that with the bug just the same.

I can't try your example because my G940 slop prevents the stick from being completely centered without a hand holding it there (and it's hard to do it continously as there's no tactile feedback). I did see the stick move in the cockpit and the plane reacted even though sensitivity was set so that no movement was supposed to be possible.

The P-80 control stick moves very noticably with the bug btw. Try setting ALL the sensitivities for pitch and roll to zero in IL-2 and step into the P-80 cockpit. Surely the in-game stick should then under no circumstance be able to move. If you have the bug, then the stick can be seen moving forward (when the Y axis of the joystick hits center) and left (when X-axis touches center) as long as the real joystick is centered. So moving slowly over the center point of the real joystick should make the cockpit stick move left-right, forward-back etc slightly but noticably if you keep camera focused on it.

Note that if you have a well centered spring joystick (for example), the first thing you are likely to notice is that the in-game stick moves to the right and backward a bit whenever you move your stick from center.

Give me a moment and I will record a brief replay displaying how it looks like, then upload.

[MikkOwl]

I recorded the control column/stick moving by itself even though sensitivities were set to 0 - to find that the replay doesn't show it moving. Isn't that AWESOME? All I could record was a stupid looking high speed replay of a 262 slightly changing roll direction and pitch even though the control column isn't moving. Not even going to bother showing such junk.

Tried your P-80 example. Without touching any trims what so ever it has a phugoid oscillation up and down (which is not important). But yes, moving the stick over the center position makes the in game control stick move as I have described, moving the plane accordingly (slight left/right roll, and some minor pitch change, visibly quite clearly when time accelerated).

I think I have just about had it with trying to get anywhere with this bug. I'm going back to disabling all the in-game curves and just using external programs to tweak curves with, that way no bug and no more nonsense. That it didn't even record on replay was the last straw.

Thanks for testing and checking it out. No idea who else is affected and what causes it but it is small enough not to be noticed by most anyway, so I'm betting it will never be officially recognized or fixed.

[MikkOwl]

Yes, it can visibly be seen, although not 'stare you in the face' obvious due to the small amount.

I made a typo in the fig.2 illustration. It should read "underneath green", not red.

[Letum]

Yes, I can reproduce this.

[KG26_Alpha]

Well for what its worth I did a screenie of my MSFFB2 centring in hotas.

After moving the stick full around and then letting it centre it shows perfectly in the middle of the cross-hair red square under the green square, I can only assume that these other peoples sticks have faults of some kind or are not setup properly.

My stick is 9 years old and works faultlessly after daily usage of around 4-5 hours, shame they stopped making them

Here's my settings if anyone wants to try them

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=1
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1RZ=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0

[MikkOwl]

Question to everyone (Letum, Julian, Aviar, KG26_Alpha etc): what version of the game do you have? As in, DVD, steam, direct2drive or whatever else is out there. Mine is the STEAM version.

Originally Posted by Aviar

I have two questions about your Input screen:
1. Is the green box ever initially centered or does it become uncentered only after you initially move the stick?
2. Just curious about the Yaw axis. Why is the green box over to the left?

Never initially centered. It follows a clear pattern - if joystick centered, green (and in-game) off-centered (the bug).
The yaw axis is offset because it reads my G940 stick TRIM1 wheel as yaw axis, and I had not centered it.

Originally Posted by Aviar

If you set Dead Band, then you need to watch the RED box, not the green box. The RED box will indicate your actual IN-GAME stick movement. The same thing applies if you set Filtering. The green box simply shows you the actual movement of your joystick while on the Input screen.

It is the opposite: the red box is the 'input' that IL-2 reads from your actual joystick position, while the green is the processed 'output' that is used to determine in-game control movements. However, if sensitivity is set to 100 all over, and no deadband is set, then there is only the green. That is when the bug appears to go away for me.

Originally Posted by Aviar

I tried my best to reproduce this 'bug' on my setup but I couldn't. That doesn't mean it does not exist. However, I do find it strange that when MikkOwl tried to record a track of his mysterious in-game stick movement, this movement did not appear on the track.

The actual aircraft movement is seen in replay playback. Can see it chance pitch and roll - the effects of the bug, but cannot see the control column move. Two possibilities exist: 1. the replay fidelity does not include control movements that are very slight visually, or 2. the engine believes that the column is centered when recording the replay (and technically it should be) and so plays it back as if it was - but it retains 100% fidelity of the aircraft actual movements.

Originally Posted by julian265

I set the roll and pitch axes of my stick to 50% dead band (in IL2), no filtering, and all 100% sensitivity sliders. I saw the green square move in the input setup section, for both roll and pitch, when the real stick was crossing the centre. I then watched a Beaufighter's and P-51's stick when on the ground, and could not see any movement at all in the column/stick, when doing the same movements as above.

Repeat the same above but set deadband to zero, then observe control column. And if you can, choose the Me-262 A1 in a 'scramble' mission starting on the runway, and go to gunsight mode (Shift-F1), as the control stick in the cockpit is then VERY close to the camera and from a more top down perspective.

Using deadband makes it go off-set, but it does not go back to center when one's joystick leaves the actual center. So, do it with zero sensitivities and zero deadband.

Originally Posted by julian265

I use a 4096 step BU0836A and hall effect sensors. Due to it's long throw, I normally use 100% sensitivity and no filtering, and have noticed (when keeping the wings level) that IL2 has a noticeable step around joystick-centre, when at any other position, it a tiny joystick movement yields a tiny in-game joystick movement. I've always thought something was a little wrong... along with the strange interpretation of power/pitch axes (I know from DIView that the stick is giving 4096 steps for these axes as well, yet IL2 gives me 2-3% increments).

Yeah, that strange 'interpretation' in the center is sure what it feels like for me, if I don't use 100% sensitivity and no deadband. If I make use of no IL-2 joystick tweaks, then it is okay. I can't tell 100% as there is the 'reversal bug' on the G940, making it slightly jumpy in certain conditions, and I do use curves (a lot of it) normally from the Logitech profiler, since the IL-2 native ones are bugged.

The 2-3% thing seems to be the way IL-2 reads the axes. I get it as well on devices that have 256 positions (while in-game throttle might have 120 positions).

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Well for what its worth I did a screenie of my MSFFB2 centring in hotas. After moving the stick full around and then letting it centre it shows perfectly in the middle of the cross-hair red square under the green square, I can only assume that these other peoples sticks have faults of some kind or are not setup properly. My stick is 9 years old and works faultlessly after daily usage of around 4-5 hours, shame they stopped making them

Here's my settings if anyone wants to try them

As I asked in the first line in the post, let me know what version you have of the game (steam etc). Watching that screenshot it is absolutely clear you don't have the bug.

However, the hardware isn't faulty, for I have tried connecting and assigning all kinds of controllers to all kinds of functions in IL-2. It affects the rudders for example, and trims, throttle, pitch, roll, FLAPS - anything that can use an axis. Even using the Saitek Quadrant (as only connected device in an experiment), using a lever each for pitch and roll, shows the bug behaviour 100% reliably as any other controller. It is something to do with IL-2 itself as it only appears using controller tweaks native to IL-2; place the red square in the middle with any controller and it goes off-set. It does not exist when not using them.