Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

[AndyJWest]

Just a thought, does this show up on DeviceLink? It could just be a graphical glitch that has no effect on the 'real' control inputs.

[MikkOwl]

Originally Posted by brando

I've never noticed this one, probably because I've never found a reason to use deadzone on any of my controller axes. I DO set curves for all my axes

Filtering makes no difference, but deadband or sensitivity (courved response done through IL-2) does. Check it out if you haven't.

When I'm flying a plane I find myself constantly trimming anyway, either with the stick and pedals or the trim wheels - so it doesn't much matter whether the centres are creeping or not, so long as the instruments are centred in the cockpit.

This is fine for off-stick flying, but it it becomes an issue if the controls move on their own when you are moving across the center (imagine when gunning, even if the effect is not large enough for most to realize).

Originally Posted by Aviar

Sorry, but I don't seem to have this 'problem'. I followed your instructions to reproduce your issue. I set the deadband to 50 on all three axis.

The red and green boxes always recenter perfectly and never deviate from the center position.

Good that you tried it out. The amount of offset for the green square I am talking about is very small - one pixel up and one pixel to the left. Did you try it in-cockpit? Because there it is easy to notice (when zooming in with the FOV, static view on the ground) if the control stick moves in the slightest when repeating the same test. Easier to see than a green square that moves miminally. The stick should of course not move not even the slightest if things work as they should.

I also use the CH Control Manager software to tweak my HOTAS settings. So, if this is the kind of 'external programs' you mentioned, it may be the reason I don't have the centering issue you described

I meant the only way to have courves or deadzone (not that I use deadzone, but I do like courves) is to use external programs, if one wants to avoid this control centering bug. In my case at least.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

Just a thought, does this show up on DeviceLink? It could just be a graphical glitch that has no effect on the 'real' control inputs.

Devicelink input cannot use IL-2's native courves/deadband so the bug cannot affect it.

It is not a graphical glitch - in fact, I noticed it when flying in an IL-2 on a longer flight (with time acceleration at times) and I noticed that it was a bitch to get the stick just 100% right, and then when testing a little I noticed that it outright turned the ailerons in the opposite direction I wanted to turn to (I had stick centered, wanted to apply a bit left-aileron to compensate for a right rolling tendency and straight up the plane and keep it there. But when moving stick very slightly to the left, the plane started rolling more to the right at first, until I moved a little bit more, where it eventually started to move in the 'correct' direction. This is due to the bug described - my stick was centered, but the courved etc IL-2 input was offset to the left a little. When I moved to to the left, the bug would stop acting (and the input would go into the real center); causing the opposite control response.

It is noticable both graphically on the control stick in game (under the reproduction steps I mentioned) and in the hardware > input screen. And it affects all controls that can be bound under "HOTAS" (not that anyone uses courves on throttle, prop and flaps but it does, I checked, set the courves through IL-2 Joy).

Just be aware it is slight, so slight I have no trouble believing 99% of users just haven't really noticed it. But definitely it will show, if the bug exists on one's system, using the reproduction steps.

[KG26_Alpha]

Anyone else noticed this controller bug?

No

[MikkOwl]

I have torn out and deleted anything pertaining to my IL-2 installs (main one was the steam version but had an older in my program folder as well). Went through registry with a comb to delete any mention of IL-2. Uninstalled the Logitech Profiler drivers and deleted all references to them in the registry. Uninstalled and deleted all mention of the Saitek Quadrant drivers/software. Rebooted several times. Downloaded Il-2 again from Steam, fresh. Launched (4.08m), testing it out - no change. Same bug.

However, with the joystick now having no curves set by outside programs, it was harder to get it completely centered (in order to observe the bug, especially in the cockpit). I had to look for it for a while, esp when starting airborne and camera moving around a bit, before I could certify it was still there. And it is. Sucks...

The stick is seen moving slightly as I described, when the joystick is completely centered. And it does indeed affect the aircraft flight, could be seen from outside and inside, especially when under time acceleration.

Originally Posted by Aviar

I guess when you say 'courves', you mean 'curves' (the 10 sliders on each axis). Anyway, 'curves' is the correct English spelling, if that's what you mean.

That's the spelling I was looking for, thanks for pointing it out. I kept feeling disturbed by it lately as "is this really as it should be? Feels wrong". Need to get my Firefox spelling checker plugin working again.

..I still cannot reproduce this 'bug'. Not only did I set the deadzone for all 3 axis to 50, I also set ALL the sliders (curves) to values UNDER 100%. [..] the green and red boxes stay perfectly centered.

Hmm, that is crappy for me and good for you. Did you closely observe the stick with maximum zoom on the ground to see if it moved in the slightest when joystick goes from dead center to near center etc?

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

No

Did you try it in the hardware setup screen AND in-game cockpit as mentioned in the reply to Aviar?

[MikkOwl]

After more testing, I've found that it is not as apparent with using only deadband as I suggested using. When using only deadband to test it, it does move offset, but since the stick never returns to true center this is almost impossible to notice when in the cockpit visually.

So if anyone could please try the following method and I would be very happy:

1. Set sensitivity of your roll and pitch in IL-2 to zero for the three leftmost ones, and set deadband to zero for both.

2. Step into the cockpit ON THE GROUND (do not be airborne since it is harder to verify) and zoom in on the control column/stick.

3. Move your joystick very carefully across it's center point, as if barely moving from center at all. What I see is that the column moves slightly to the left (just a bit) and slightly forward whenever the joystick is at true center. When moving away from it, the (cockpit) control column returns to true center.

If you have any external software to change the curves of your stick, set it to lowest sensitivity, as that will make it much easier to hit the centermost positions of the stick.

I just tried this with my Saitek Quadrant with nothing Logitech control-wise connected and the virtual driver bus interface disabled in the system settings even, and I observed the above.

I find it very unlikely that IL-2 would be any different on my computer compared to others', and it cannot be a hardware problem since it is only brought on by trying to use the IL-2 curves (Sensitivity) native to that application. The bug itself appears when a control input is at true center, which implies that there could be a coding mistake where the curve sensitivity processing is turned off if the controller is centered, as 'there is no need for it', and it re-engages as soon as the controller leaves center. But for some reason what is considered 'center' for the processed input is slightly offset, perhaps the exact same distance that is required for the controller to move before the curve processing is re-enabled again.

[MikkOwl]

That plane has trims - but I presume you mean you move the stick around gently near the center at the same time as described in the reproduction steps and yet it flies absolutely straight, even in time accelleration.

As you said though, you followed the instructions and could not reproduce what I see. That's good enough for me.

I presume the steam version (which is the one I bought) of IL-2 is somehow defunct, as that's the only thing file wise that can differ between us presuming a clean install and all.

[MikkOwl]

In the example you provided, it could be either way, because the P-80 has aileron and rudder trim (if I'm not mistaken). If you are trimmed to fly straight with stick centered, it would be that with the bug just the same.

I can't try your example because my G940 slop prevents the stick from being completely centered without a hand holding it there (and it's hard to do it continously as there's no tactile feedback). I did see the stick move in the cockpit and the plane reacted even though sensitivity was set so that no movement was supposed to be possible.

The P-80 control stick moves very noticably with the bug btw. Try setting ALL the sensitivities for pitch and roll to zero in IL-2 and step into the P-80 cockpit. Surely the in-game stick should then under no circumstance be able to move. If you have the bug, then the stick can be seen moving forward (when the Y axis of the joystick hits center) and left (when X-axis touches center) as long as the real joystick is centered. So moving slowly over the center point of the real joystick should make the cockpit stick move left-right, forward-back etc slightly but noticably if you keep camera focused on it.

Note that if you have a well centered spring joystick (for example), the first thing you are likely to notice is that the in-game stick moves to the right and backward a bit whenever you move your stick from center.

Give me a moment and I will record a brief replay displaying how it looks like, then upload.

[Letum]

Yes, I can reproduce this.

[KG26_Alpha]

Well for what its worth I did a screenie of my MSFFB2 centring in hotas.

After moving the stick full around and then letting it centre it shows perfectly in the middle of the cross-hair red square under the green square, I can only assume that these other peoples sticks have faults of some kind or are not setup properly.

My stick is 9 years old and works faultlessly after daily usage of around 4-5 hours, shame they stopped making them

Here's my settings if anyone wants to try them

[rts_joystick]
X=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Y=0 1 4 9 16 25 36 49 64 81 100 0
Z=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100
RZ=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
FF=1
U=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
V=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1X=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1Y=0 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 0
1RZ=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1U=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0
1V=0 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 100 0