Rolling in a Bf 110

[MikkOwl]

The 7.92mm in general are pretty ineffective from straight behind. I recall doing long dogfight sessions with a friend with early war type planes (Hurricane Mk.II etc) and there were times were one could exhaust the entire ammunition supply (at fairly close range from 6 o clock) onto the plane but it would not go down. Some control surface damages in the tail etc, yes. But not go down.

The reason for this is probably as simple as the official conclusions back in the day - only the engines and cockpit are effective to shoot at, while for cannons the entire plane is. MG type projectiles don't have enough energy for penetration of the skin and doing any considerable damage - especially at high deflection angles (straight from behind). And from behind it is hard to hit the engine and cockpit. An exception is if having perfect convergence with 8+ Mg's - then it can start causing destruction anywhere. And this is why the RAF was so concerned with convergece in general.

4x17mg are not completely useless, if used when doing long and medium range deflection shooting. There's so much ammo that you can fire for a really long time (nearly a full minute of trigger time), and hitting is not that difficult.

Often an enemy, when turning into you or around you or whatever, will be putting is lift vector on you (that is, you are straight up from the pilot's seat). This means the cockpit presents itself for a pilot killing opportunity, as well as engine, and the 4x17 fire 80 rounds per second.. almost like a modern minigun. The chance of hitting is much greater than when using the cannons. Just shower the fuselage, let them fly through the hail.

But when dealing with bombers, ground targets, shooting at something from behind, bouncing anything - the 108's are of course extremely superior. The 108 is a much better weapon. Question is how much - really - it affects aircraft performance. An extra 120-200+ kg at the nose should not affect roll rate, but it should make the aircraft have a worse turn rate (especially sustained turn), worse climb, worse acceleration. Meanwhile, it should be more stable (good for gunnery?), less likely to spin, less severe spins that are easier to recover from and..and.. and..

I have had no luck at all with 3.7 vs tanks ever. A big explosion but no dead tanks.

Oktoberfest - what about that Split-S for 110, any specific reason for using it?

[Oktoberfest]

Hello Mikkowl,

the reason why I favor the 108s to the MG is that given the already lack of any edge in speed, manoeuvrability and acceleration, I prefer having something that allows to set the game instantly. How good is 5% manoeuvrability more an advantage if all enemy fighters are 2 to 3 times better in manoeuvrability than you anyway, especially if you give up the 1 hit 1 kill option ?

About the split-S, it's the only effective way for the 110 to disengage from an enemy diving on you at high speed. But if you pull too hard on the stick, the plane will shake and you lose actually time to start the dive. Which gives a better opportunity for the enemmy to fire at you.

Of course, if their is enough separation, favor the head on.

[MikkOwl]

Understood. I thought you meant to use Split-S in other situations than just anti-bounce maneuver.

And yes, understood the 108 reasoning before, just like I myself reason exactly the same. No point to 110 at all if not having something to use that has an edge.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

Guys:

Among all tanks, the only problem I had with KV-1. it should be hit directly in the top of turm. But against Shermans, T-34 and all other lighter tanks it is perfect, I remember I had one mission, with result: 12 T-70, 9 T-34 and 3 KV-1 destroyed

Actually, I will look through my records, if some tracks are still exist... I cant record new ones, because my mouse joystick does not work with Win7 (64bit), and it is need a time to search new version of sofware. I didnt flew for 3 month already

[KG26_Alpha]

Originally Posted by =KAG=Bersrk

Guys:

Among all tanks, the only problem I had with KV-1. it should be hit directly in the top of turm. But against Shermans, T-34 and all other lighter tanks it is perfect, I remember I had one mission, with result: 12 T-70, 9 T-34 and 3 KV-1 destroyed

Actually, I will look through my records, if some tracks are still exist... I cant record new ones, because my mouse joystick does not work with Win7 (64bit), and it is need a time to search new version of sofware. I didnt flew for 3 month already

You must hit the tank directly into the top of the turret at a high angle.

The Bf110 has an instability problem with the nose wobbling even when perfectly trimmed and rudder inputs at neutral and firing your weapons.
This with the slow rof of the BK37 makes it a poor tank buster under combat conditions, its safer to take bombs and get in and out fast, killing tanks with the BK37 takes time, alot of time but not impossible.

Don't even mention the Stuka G1, Im sure those guns are firing the same HE rounds and not AP as the BF110

[MikkOwl]

The instability is something I've noted as well. It only appears when the aircraft becomes unstable for some reason (provoked on some way). Have to be smooth on the controls if one is to be aiming carefully or wobble will potentially ruin it. The 3.7 cannon certainly provokes it a bit.

[robtek]

To achieve precision with the one must throttle down to not less then 30% power
in the dive => +40°, use the rudder ONLY for last second aim correction and aim about a meter, meter and a half, above the real aim spot.
For starters one should begin the dive at 1100m.
It doesn't matter if one hits the turret-top or the engine cover, one shot, one tank.
One good shot is way better than 2 or 3 hasty shots.
With 62 shots in the magazine the enemy fighters are usually sooner than the empty magazine.
The ju87g1 is much easier to use as it is a bit more stable, slower and has always 2 rounds fired, but only 12 shots.

[Remo]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

You must hit the tank directly into the top of the turret at a high angle.

The Bf110 has an instability problem with the nose wobbling even when perfectly trimmed and rudder inputs at neutral and firing your weapons.
...

Haven't noticed the instability problem you mention here. The 110 just need constant fine tuning of the elevator + rudder trimming. Relatively small changes in speed (and throttle input) needs adjustment of both rudder + elevator trimming. I prefer to always trim the elevator negative ( means I have to slightly pull on the stick to keep it level ) this helps a lot in the dives where it is inevitable that you will gain more speed and screw up your trimming.

BTW going in a steep angled dive in an online server with a high ping (mine avg between 250ms(eu) - 350ms(usa)) is a sure way to die. ALWAYS go in with a shallow dive, fire from some distance to give you ample time to pull up.

As for tank busting , I have one golden rule, If I can't kill it from the side I don't waist my time with said target. Just skip the tanks ( unless you have SD/SC 500s, even so if they aren't tightly grouped don't bother ) , go for soft targets trucks, half tracks , and mobile artillery. Half tracks and trucks you kill with the 20mm's (one short burst do the trick), Mobile artillery you can also kill with 20mm , but I prefer to give them a short burst of the mk108's.

I have NEVER been able to kill a heavy tank on an online server with the mk108 or bk 3.7 ,and I have never seen it done either...

Always take 2xmk108+2x20mm's ( with optional bombs if your mission is JABO, SD500's if you can)
Bombs set to 2.5-3.5 secs delay.
If you find an enemy on your six and you still have your bombs you can use them as a last ditch defense too, hit the deck +- 20m , drop your bombs as the enemy gets in range ( you need some practice to find the right delay + distance + speed and more importantly to fly the plane low on the deck while you are looking at enemy from the you gunner position.. ).
That said this is a last resort. As Oktoberfest said, if at all possible turn to face your enemy.

~S Oktober , been a while since we shared the skies m8.

[MikkOwl]

The Revi gunsights are no doubt not calibrated for spitfires. More likely it uses the mil system, marking the rings accordingly. Biggest ring is probably 100 meters across at 1000 meters, and 10 meters across at 100 meters. The ones inside I haven't checked but one can visually figure it out by checking their ratio compared to the main ring. I'm sure the gunnery manual we found in german and finnish tells it correctly.

I found all kinds of pilot manuals for the Bf 110 series (and Me-210's, Me-410's, 109's, Fw-190's, Ju 87's, Ju 88's, Ju-188's, He-111's, He-162's, Me-262's, Do-17's), from early to late models. Even several different ones for various G-2 models depending on loadout options. Including the Mk 108 version.. It even has illustrations/charts showing the ballistic path of the 108 shells compared to the 151/20 shells. It's all in German which I don't understand well. Going to select the most interesting parts and type them into google translate I guess so I can make sense of them. I do look forward to learning how the real pilots flew those things - making use of all the instrument panels for RPM, manifold pressure and so forth.

I found the manuals here: http://deutscheluftwaffe.de/archiv/D.../Dokumente.htm - Click on "F" and then scroll down to "Flugzeug Handbücher". Then on the manufacturer.

EDIT: Crappy, been looking through the 110 ones, and they are mainly just technical manuals, not really for piloting. Not the gold mine I thought it was.

[JG52Karaya]

Originally Posted by KG26_Alpha

Don't even mention the Stuka G1, Im sure those guns are firing the same HE rounds and not AP as the BF110

The Ju87G Stuka uses an AP only belting, the Bf110G and Hs129 have a mixed AP-HE-HEI belting

Fact...

This will probably change for the Hs129 with the coming 4.10 patch. The Bf110 has a mixed belting probably because its meant to be hunting bombers with it, not tanks. And I doubt that Bf110s ever enjoyed the luxury of being given expensive tungsten core AP shells for tank hunting, these were exclusive to the Ju87G (and maybe Hs129)