Rolling in a Bf 110

[MikkOwl]

First to all, you have to be totally aware that the 110 is not the P-38. Nothing is similar to it especially with how the 110 is modeled to the P38 in this game.

The comparison and differences you pionted out were very informative and educational. I was aware of there being major differences, but I was thinking of the P-38 as in used against Zeros, not quite the War Clouds type situation. A maybe not entirely different situation to how the Bf 110 C models were like during the Battle of Britain (Mainly slower Hurricanes everywhere that turn much better but much slower and worse armament). I thought, and still think, that cross tactics could be useful (not least in the terms of twin engines and if there's any maneuvers possible with them apart from getting out of spins and to help out the rudder at very slow speed vertical maneuvering).

- Manoeuvrability : Decent in turns actually. If you know how to handle it you can follow P-47s and P-51s easily in turns. You can follow a 38 and even slightly a Tempest. Forget about the Spit, of course

I finally found out the difference in instantaneous and sustained turn rate. This is important as the 110 seems to have pretty good instantaneous turn.

"Instantaneous turn rate describes maximum g turns which cause a loss in energy, either in the form of speed or altitude. This loss may be compensated for, to a degree, by increasing thrust, known as "excess specific power." This usually occurs during hard turns or even harder breaks. Only by turning the aircraft at its best "sustained turn rate" can the aircraft maintain its specific energy."

In general, it seems that it is possible to very quickly change the attitude (pitch) of the plane at any time (changing foremost angle of attack), which seems very useful for bringing guns on someone. But also if the 110 starts turning pretty fast, this should be exploited too. The one thing that it really can't do well, like you have pointed to, is sustained maneuvering. It will just slooooow down when pushed hard. Emphasising the 'burn' in "Turn n' Burn". The Fw 190 does good instantaneous turns (and of course amazing rolling) and in that thing, doing several shorter hard maneuvers (or jinks we can say) is useful for throwing off someone's pursuit and aim. Limited in the 110, but at least it's something. Also, nosing down hard, with or without some turning involved, must surely be something since it does perform it initially very quickly, while slowing down in the process (and takes a while to red out).

Snap roll are good ideas, but the best is still to split S. Full rudder, full ailerons but not full elevator or stall. It’s also easier to start rolling in the direction where the torque pushes you.

Not full elevator in what part of the Split S? When already inverted?

What is the reasoning for Split-S in particular? That it loses speed fast and has decent turn radius (which is fine for Split-S where you don't want to hit the ground)? If so, maybe the opponent follows it up with a Shit-S (Split-S gone wrong, flight into ground)... It rolls on the slow side, but not that bad I think, with rudder and other things thrown in, as long as there's speed. To add to it - isn't the ideal maneuver to add to the Split-S specifically a snap-roll? Just quickly flip 180 and pull back hard. Faster than trying to roll conventionally.

Armor : The 110 is a real tough bird, especially compared to the 38. It can take a lot of punishment and still go back to base (personnal experience is going in that direction). 20 mm of the Tempest is the biggest threat, otherwise it can take a dozen of not converged 20 mm guns and loads of .50 cal. Good point for the bird, the control cables are the best protected in the game. You’ll nearly never get them cut due to enemy fire, which allow you to bring back heavily damaged planes. Weak spot of the 110 compared to the 38 : engine fire. When a 38 engine catches fire, the 38 can fly forever. When a 110 engine catches fire, you have to try to extinguish it the fastest possible, or the fuel tank will leak, then burn and finally explode (usually short after the fuel reaches the empty level)

I read that the 110 lacked some armor from the front due to the nose having no engine to absorb bullets. Of course this means messing up the instrument panel and pilot rather than getting the engine damaged, if such hits could occur. But this was comments from some IL-2 forum and not about the real 110 as far as I know, thus it could be inaccurate. Maybe it had decent armor in the nose? Not to mention the surface is angled for deflection of projectiles as well as there being plenty of weapon systems with their mounting points to absorb damage.

Also, the question of survivability: the 110 seems a lot larger than the average fighter (not to mention small ones). It may absorb more damage, but I wonder if there's much difference as it will get hit more due to size.

My own experience does suggest it can get shot up a lot. I have a tendency to lose my Revi Gunsight more than other planes if anything. The glass-house cockpit is a bit bothersome, but probably no different from any other fighter. The 110 is a hell of a lot tougher than the P-38 for sure. 38 always gets catastrophic failiure instantly, very different. Being so large makes it hit more too.

Rear gunner : another edge over the P38. Don’t dream, if an enemy is in your six, he’ll outmanoeuvre you in 80% of the cases. The rear gunner is then a precious ally even if you usually have to do the gunning yourself because it aims so bad even in straight lines. Aim at engine of liquid cooled fighters so they start burning or at the cockpit of air cooled engine fighters and pray for a PK. Rear gunner is also very good to improve your SA, not every fighter has the luxury to have 2 pair of eyes.

I cannot use the mouse and the stick at the same time, so I don't have to worry about having to use the gunner to shoot with. The gunner does aim very good if the aim is still and the target isn't moving in a way that requires lead. But that's only something one gets when they sneak up on you flying straight or are behind you at the top of a zoom (I saw that once in my rear view mirror so to speak). Maybe if crippled and slow, and they fly behind slow as well. Here's hoping SoW makes the BordFunker realistic in function even in multiplayer and in aim. Telling where the enemy is.

Best I’ve seen was 5 110 vs 2 Spits, 2 51 and 1 Tempest meeting at 5000m. The 110s got all the enemy fighters vs 1 damaged and 1 lost (crew bailed). This was done on Warclouds a few years ago already.

Did the enemy say anything to comment on such a glorious outcome? I'm sure they didn't expect it (unless it was during the 110 mobster era ). I agree, team work and communication is much more important than the planetype. Firepower always mixes well with team work especially while maneuverability and speed I think is outmost important for lone wolfing.

Deflection shooting is easy because of very good forward visibility (best of the german fighters actually), but the easiest remains from 6 o clock (no corrections to do).

This is a theme with the 110 in general - kill them fast with superior firepower, for there is rarely a second chance. All the tactics seem to be about this. If at first you don't succeed, run... I think one thing I must absolutely do is become a skilled shot with the various cannons, for without that the rest is pretty pointless. The good undistorted forward vision with (unique for a german plane) centered gunsight is part of a strength that must be taken advantage of fully.

108s will do better, you have a higher rate of fire and 1 hit will usually get a fighter down (except the 47 who can absord between a dozen to 35 108s before going down, from personnal experience).

I can confirm that observation. It was the most durable fighter during the war, so it's not the wrong plane for it. But was it that extremely durable?

[IceFire]

Glancing shots with a 108 are going to do less damage than a full on hit. Sometimes you hit an extremity and you waste a lot of blast damage into empty air. Or at least you do in the sim... I'm sure some of the air pressure effects aren't counted.

Still... some of you have pumped 35 MK108s into a P-47? All it takes is one often enough... sometimes one or two and the whole tail section comes off. It is a bit of a tough plane...

[David603]

Yeah, I fly the 109K4 alot and while P47s can often take one hit from a Mk108, unless you put the shot into the cockpit or engine, 2 hits are almost always enough.

The only time I have had to put more than 2 rounds into a P47 was one time where I jumped one from behind and fired a 2 round burst, hitting the left stabiliser with one round, blowing it, the left elevator and the rudder off, with the second round going into the left wing, and the P47 was still flying, obviously crippled but holding a steady course and I could see the pilot upright in the cockpit. I made a second pass from above and behind, firing one round into the cockpit, at which point the Jug went nose down and flew straight into the ground.

[=KAG=Bersrk]

I always use:

-tanks busting: Bk3,7
-railroad stations and airfield attack: 2xSD500 + 4xSC50
-patrooling and other fighter missions: default
-heavy bomber interception: 2xMK108

[Oktoberfest]

About the 108s and the 47, I don't know what was wrong with that particular P47 but it took a lot of hits, yeah. And it's not something unusual. I remember chasing a P47 with Brain32 once, both firing a mixture of 108s, 20mm and 13mm rounds... It really took a lot of hits to bring him down...

Less than with 7.92mm though... Once I've made the test online, I had default armament in the nose... I chased an already damaged 47 (I damaged his engine) and wanted to see how effective those MGs are.... I fired half of my ammunition and scored 800 hits... to no visible effect. At the end I had to score again some 12 x 20 mm rounds to bring it down. Otherwise he would've flown straight back to its base. That's why I gave up the default armament. Usually, one 30mm round = 50 - 100 mg rounds. If you aim properly, this is more effective.

To Mikk Owl, I confirm : the safest way to go out of a bad situation is to have a wingman

Manoeuvering is good but then even if you manage to lose an enemy's aim for a few seconds, the 110 poor acceleration makes it hard to take any advantage.

@ Berserk : You have to send me some tracks on how you do that job with the Bk37 against sherman. I never managed anything with that gun.

[KG26_Alpha]

IL2 1946 Bk 37 is HE round not AP

So killing Shermans must be a round straight into the turret hatch or rear turret area ??
Some early Soviet tanks can be killed with 20mm from the sides.

It was originally AP round in first model with the gun (IIRC) angled down but that was revised into BK 37 HE bomber killer.

[MikkOwl]

The 7.92mm in general are pretty ineffective from straight behind. I recall doing long dogfight sessions with a friend with early war type planes (Hurricane Mk.II etc) and there were times were one could exhaust the entire ammunition supply (at fairly close range from 6 o clock) onto the plane but it would not go down. Some control surface damages in the tail etc, yes. But not go down.

The reason for this is probably as simple as the official conclusions back in the day - only the engines and cockpit are effective to shoot at, while for cannons the entire plane is. MG type projectiles don't have enough energy for penetration of the skin and doing any considerable damage - especially at high deflection angles (straight from behind). And from behind it is hard to hit the engine and cockpit. An exception is if having perfect convergence with 8+ Mg's - then it can start causing destruction anywhere. And this is why the RAF was so concerned with convergece in general.

4x17mg are not completely useless, if used when doing long and medium range deflection shooting. There's so much ammo that you can fire for a really long time (nearly a full minute of trigger time), and hitting is not that difficult.

Often an enemy, when turning into you or around you or whatever, will be putting is lift vector on you (that is, you are straight up from the pilot's seat). This means the cockpit presents itself for a pilot killing opportunity, as well as engine, and the 4x17 fire 80 rounds per second.. almost like a modern minigun. The chance of hitting is much greater than when using the cannons. Just shower the fuselage, let them fly through the hail.

But when dealing with bombers, ground targets, shooting at something from behind, bouncing anything - the 108's are of course extremely superior. The 108 is a much better weapon. Question is how much - really - it affects aircraft performance. An extra 120-200+ kg at the nose should not affect roll rate, but it should make the aircraft have a worse turn rate (especially sustained turn), worse climb, worse acceleration. Meanwhile, it should be more stable (good for gunnery?), less likely to spin, less severe spins that are easier to recover from and..and.. and..

I have had no luck at all with 3.7 vs tanks ever. A big explosion but no dead tanks.

Oktoberfest - what about that Split-S for 110, any specific reason for using it?