Rolling in a Bf 110

[MikkOwl]

On the Fw 190, the closest pair are in the wing roots, maybe 3 meters apart, while the outer pair are even much further. On the Bf 110, maybe 40-70cm between all of them. I set the convergence to maximum, 1000 meters. The inaccuracy in the shells themselves are bigger than the distance between the barrel, and having convergence makes them cross each other's path outwards, the same disadvantage that wing cannons get (but less extreme). I am sure that in reality they used no convergence at all, since it was so close, and it was about cannon shells anyway.

The longer the range, the more effective the larger caliber shells are. The problem is of course, hitting anything. The 108 shells have low initial muzzle velocity, but their massive weight makes them overtake the 151/20's (which slow down faster from air resistance) after a few hundred meters, albeit with more projectile drop.

I love the nose mounted weaponry, and I love even more not having a propeller to have to sync-shoot through!

Firing both 151 and 108's at the same time seems to give no problem with stability of the plane, and their different paths (elevation wise) and large ammo supply increases the chance of a (brutal) hit. The technique I am working on in general to hit a plane of imprecise range and speed, when in 6 o-clock true chase behind him (he running away) is to walk the fire upwards. A 20 or a 30 is bound to come down on his plane if he's flying straight. They certainly have the speed advantage in later war scenarios, but having this firepower makes it possible to have a big shell catch up with them real fast before they get out of range

Absolutely though, the 151's are potent weapons. But the 30's are even much more potent, and they get to the target as fast as the 151's if there's a few hundred meters involved. I'm going to try to learn how to shoot both of them at any ranges.

[Oktoberfest]

Hello MikkOwl,

the good thing with mixing 20mm with 30mm rounds when you fire is that the paths of the shells are different, which means that you can spray on a wider area. It depends of course of the form and of the distance of the engagement, but I often fire with all cannons together.

I've made a track for you so you can see roughly how I fly. You'll see that TEAMWORK is essential ! And I was always on comms with Reich.

[MikkOwl]

Thank you very much. Downloaded already. Will watch later today. Printed your big nice reply with all those answers too, and will keep it around at all times when flying the 110 for quick access.

Currently busy working on that Multi-Throttle program (version 4.0, I really want to get it together and released already). Makes flying the 110 all the more fun with the split throttles and, in version 4.0, individual prop pitch too. Intend to learn how to fly the G2 with manual prop pitch and follow more realistic procedures and settings. It really sets the blade angle too, not the desired RPM of each engine so overrev happens easily if diving and not adjusting. As far as I know the C-2 and C-4 models did not have automatic pitch, and that's what we should be getting for Storm of War. Might as well have the habit already.

[Blackdog_kt]

I agree on everything you say guys. The problem for me is not the range or speed of the 108s but the drop, especially if high pitch values and G loads become a factor.

I can hit targets that are slower than me just fine, especially if they are something big (like a bomber that i happen to approach from the sides, heck you can knock the rudders off of B17s even if you happen to shoot higher and miss the fuselage). However, in that case it's not only that the enemy target is moving in a predictable way, it's also that my airframe is on a more or less stable run.
I usually make a curved approach, turning into them from their 2/10 o'clock, so as i get closer i shoot and exit to their 5/7 o'clock. The thing is, before firing i quickly roll level with the plane defined by the target's wings. In all of this, at the moment of firing i have a stable airframe flying almost straight and level and pulling almost no Gs, so i can score good hits. It might be just a split second, but it definitely is there.

However if i take a fighter/heavy fighter with 108s against another fighter, i don't only have to track a wildly maneuvering target with a limited ammo supply, but my airframe is also unstable as a result of following him.

That doesn't mean the 108 is crap, it means that i'm crap with the 108s against small targets
It's why i always fly 190s even when i want to go high, where a 109K4 would probably make more sense.

[MikkOwl]

First to all, you have to be totally aware that the 110 is not the P-38. Nothing is similar to it especially with how the 110 is modeled to the P38 in this game.

The comparison and differences you pionted out were very informative and educational. I was aware of there being major differences, but I was thinking of the P-38 as in used against Zeros, not quite the War Clouds type situation. A maybe not entirely different situation to how the Bf 110 C models were like during the Battle of Britain (Mainly slower Hurricanes everywhere that turn much better but much slower and worse armament). I thought, and still think, that cross tactics could be useful (not least in the terms of twin engines and if there's any maneuvers possible with them apart from getting out of spins and to help out the rudder at very slow speed vertical maneuvering).

- Manoeuvrability : Decent in turns actually. If you know how to handle it you can follow P-47s and P-51s easily in turns. You can follow a 38 and even slightly a Tempest. Forget about the Spit, of course

I finally found out the difference in instantaneous and sustained turn rate. This is important as the 110 seems to have pretty good instantaneous turn.

"Instantaneous turn rate describes maximum g turns which cause a loss in energy, either in the form of speed or altitude. This loss may be compensated for, to a degree, by increasing thrust, known as "excess specific power." This usually occurs during hard turns or even harder breaks. Only by turning the aircraft at its best "sustained turn rate" can the aircraft maintain its specific energy."

In general, it seems that it is possible to very quickly change the attitude (pitch) of the plane at any time (changing foremost angle of attack), which seems very useful for bringing guns on someone. But also if the 110 starts turning pretty fast, this should be exploited too. The one thing that it really can't do well, like you have pointed to, is sustained maneuvering. It will just slooooow down when pushed hard. Emphasising the 'burn' in "Turn n' Burn". The Fw 190 does good instantaneous turns (and of course amazing rolling) and in that thing, doing several shorter hard maneuvers (or jinks we can say) is useful for throwing off someone's pursuit and aim. Limited in the 110, but at least it's something. Also, nosing down hard, with or without some turning involved, must surely be something since it does perform it initially very quickly, while slowing down in the process (and takes a while to red out).

Snap roll are good ideas, but the best is still to split S. Full rudder, full ailerons but not full elevator or stall. It’s also easier to start rolling in the direction where the torque pushes you.

Not full elevator in what part of the Split S? When already inverted?

What is the reasoning for Split-S in particular? That it loses speed fast and has decent turn radius (which is fine for Split-S where you don't want to hit the ground)? If so, maybe the opponent follows it up with a Shit-S (Split-S gone wrong, flight into ground)... It rolls on the slow side, but not that bad I think, with rudder and other things thrown in, as long as there's speed. To add to it - isn't the ideal maneuver to add to the Split-S specifically a snap-roll? Just quickly flip 180 and pull back hard. Faster than trying to roll conventionally.

Armor : The 110 is a real tough bird, especially compared to the 38. It can take a lot of punishment and still go back to base (personnal experience is going in that direction). 20 mm of the Tempest is the biggest threat, otherwise it can take a dozen of not converged 20 mm guns and loads of .50 cal. Good point for the bird, the control cables are the best protected in the game. You’ll nearly never get them cut due to enemy fire, which allow you to bring back heavily damaged planes. Weak spot of the 110 compared to the 38 : engine fire. When a 38 engine catches fire, the 38 can fly forever. When a 110 engine catches fire, you have to try to extinguish it the fastest possible, or the fuel tank will leak, then burn and finally explode (usually short after the fuel reaches the empty level)

I read that the 110 lacked some armor from the front due to the nose having no engine to absorb bullets. Of course this means messing up the instrument panel and pilot rather than getting the engine damaged, if such hits could occur. But this was comments from some IL-2 forum and not about the real 110 as far as I know, thus it could be inaccurate. Maybe it had decent armor in the nose? Not to mention the surface is angled for deflection of projectiles as well as there being plenty of weapon systems with their mounting points to absorb damage.

Also, the question of survivability: the 110 seems a lot larger than the average fighter (not to mention small ones). It may absorb more damage, but I wonder if there's much difference as it will get hit more due to size.

My own experience does suggest it can get shot up a lot. I have a tendency to lose my Revi Gunsight more than other planes if anything. The glass-house cockpit is a bit bothersome, but probably no different from any other fighter. The 110 is a hell of a lot tougher than the P-38 for sure. 38 always gets catastrophic failiure instantly, very different. Being so large makes it hit more too.

Rear gunner : another edge over the P38. Don’t dream, if an enemy is in your six, he’ll outmanoeuvre you in 80% of the cases. The rear gunner is then a precious ally even if you usually have to do the gunning yourself because it aims so bad even in straight lines. Aim at engine of liquid cooled fighters so they start burning or at the cockpit of air cooled engine fighters and pray for a PK. Rear gunner is also very good to improve your SA, not every fighter has the luxury to have 2 pair of eyes.

I cannot use the mouse and the stick at the same time, so I don't have to worry about having to use the gunner to shoot with. The gunner does aim very good if the aim is still and the target isn't moving in a way that requires lead. But that's only something one gets when they sneak up on you flying straight or are behind you at the top of a zoom (I saw that once in my rear view mirror so to speak). Maybe if crippled and slow, and they fly behind slow as well. Here's hoping SoW makes the BordFunker realistic in function even in multiplayer and in aim. Telling where the enemy is.

Best I’ve seen was 5 110 vs 2 Spits, 2 51 and 1 Tempest meeting at 5000m. The 110s got all the enemy fighters vs 1 damaged and 1 lost (crew bailed). This was done on Warclouds a few years ago already.

Did the enemy say anything to comment on such a glorious outcome? I'm sure they didn't expect it (unless it was during the 110 mobster era ). I agree, team work and communication is much more important than the planetype. Firepower always mixes well with team work especially while maneuverability and speed I think is outmost important for lone wolfing.

Deflection shooting is easy because of very good forward visibility (best of the german fighters actually), but the easiest remains from 6 o clock (no corrections to do).

This is a theme with the 110 in general - kill them fast with superior firepower, for there is rarely a second chance. All the tactics seem to be about this. If at first you don't succeed, run... I think one thing I must absolutely do is become a skilled shot with the various cannons, for without that the rest is pretty pointless. The good undistorted forward vision with (unique for a german plane) centered gunsight is part of a strength that must be taken advantage of fully.

108s will do better, you have a higher rate of fire and 1 hit will usually get a fighter down (except the 47 who can absord between a dozen to 35 108s before going down, from personnal experience).

I can confirm that observation. It was the most durable fighter during the war, so it's not the wrong plane for it. But was it that extremely durable?

[IceFire]

Glancing shots with a 108 are going to do less damage than a full on hit. Sometimes you hit an extremity and you waste a lot of blast damage into empty air. Or at least you do in the sim... I'm sure some of the air pressure effects aren't counted.

Still... some of you have pumped 35 MK108s into a P-47? All it takes is one often enough... sometimes one or two and the whole tail section comes off. It is a bit of a tough plane...

[David603]

Yeah, I fly the 109K4 alot and while P47s can often take one hit from a Mk108, unless you put the shot into the cockpit or engine, 2 hits are almost always enough.

The only time I have had to put more than 2 rounds into a P47 was one time where I jumped one from behind and fired a 2 round burst, hitting the left stabiliser with one round, blowing it, the left elevator and the rudder off, with the second round going into the left wing, and the P47 was still flying, obviously crippled but holding a steady course and I could see the pilot upright in the cockpit. I made a second pass from above and behind, firing one round into the cockpit, at which point the Jug went nose down and flew straight into the ground.