Friday 2010-02-05 Screenshots AND Discussion Thread

[jocko417]

Nice job, as stated above PLEASE let us help you with photos of period flying gear used by the RAF.

Agree that no British RAF pilot would have worn 'ENGLAND' shoulder flashes, country titles were worn by those serving with the RAF/Commonwealth outside of their home country. So, an RCAF officer would wear CANADA titles in the UK but not in Canada. Also, all non-British below officer rank wore 'shoulder eagles' not country titles.



Eagle's head would always point to the wearer's rear.

Another thing, you've copied the insignia from a modern RAF uniform. The crowns on the cap badge and wings should be a dome shape, as they were during King George VI's reign, not the heart shape adopted after the coronation of Elizabeth II. WWII-era crowns were like this:





Note the brim of the cap is the same blue-grey material, NOT black leather.

There should not be pockets on the sheepskin Irvin flying jacket, and no metal snaps on the sheepskin trousers.

BTW, don't recognize this type of flying suit:



I can give you pics of the type of suits worn during the BoB.

The life jackets pre-war were greenish, guys would later paint over them with yellow so they would be more visible in the Channel.

Original Green:



Here is the type of microphone that should be on the Oxygen mask, the one you have didn't appear until the end of the Battle, most guys would have these:




Keep up the great work, and please, let us help!

[ChrisDNT]

"British is not an ethnicity."

So, a pilot looking like a typical inhabitant of Great Britain.

[SlipBall]

Very nice up-date! love the detail...in that Life photo I notice that the horse drawn wagons are on the wrong side of the road...all kidding aside, thanks for the up-date Oleg

[dAMOCLES]

Very nice. Just some small corrections, if you feel it's important to change.

The belt buckle on the RAF tunic is wrong it should be more like lower pictures.

I assume your version is based on the Osprey men at arms picture on page 4. It should be noted that this is not the tunic belt but a webbing belt (the same as on the front cover, but without pistol holster etc.) used in this instance to attach the holder for a bayonet. Also note eagles on shoulders.

The peaked cap is also wrong in this instance. Peaked caps were very rarely worn, if ever, except by commissioned officers (pilot Officer and above) except when on special parades or if attached to the camp guard, side caps were the normal head dress. The peaked cap you have shown is for junior ranks (below commissioned Officer, so rarely worn) as it has a black polished leather peak but you have shown it with an Officers cap badge (the crown on the badge is also wrong, as pointed out in a different post). Although the Officers hat is slightly different in shape, to make it look more correct simply change the colour of the peak to same as the top and make sure it is not attached to anyone below the rank of Pilot Officer.

Junior ranks peaked cap (note badge)



Commissioned Officers peaked cap (note badge)





The face mask would not be worn except with helmet, there would be no way to attach it or listen to the radio (this isn't Memphis Belle). The colour of the helmet should also be the same as the Irvin jacket or slightly darker but definitely brown rather than black.

This is a good example for colour



Although they often look darker if new, or very old.



WWII FLYING HELMET TYPE "B" MASK TYPE "D" and RCAF GOGGLES, 1940

N.B Oxygen tube connector

Helmet Mask and Goggles used during the Battle of Britain by RAF crews. The helmet was made by I.Compton & Sons & Webb Ltd .

Mk3 RCAF Goggles. 1935 Royal Canadian Air Force Type
Introduced around 1935 Mk3 Goggles used curved celluloid lenses fitted into narrow blackened metal frames with velveteen cushions and large leather surrounds intended to protect the wearer from the elements (most RAF fighter aircraft in service in the mid-1930's were still in open cockpits). these were superseded by the Mk4 version as the the Mk3's strap fouled on the earpieces of the type 'B' helmet. the Mk4 is far more likely to have been used during the Battle of Britain.

http://www.historicflyingclothing.com/archive.php






Gloves worn, as far as I am aware, would either have been, Gauntlets, generally worn with flying overalls or tunic.





or cream coloured flying gloves used in conjunction with the leather Irvin jacket. ( however normally somewhat dirty)




The gloves you show are not flying gloves but COMMISSIONED OFFICERS gloves to be worn on parade or during cold weather normally in conjunction with a great coat or blue tunic, but not for flying. Junior ranks would probably have worn black leather or blue/grey wool gloves.

The side cap. RAF pilots were not common Russian peasant soldiers but image concious/stylish Fighter Pilots, caps were worn at an angle, the general rule being as far as gravity and the Station warrant officer (GOD)would allow. The front should be no higher than the distance of the man's thumb tip to the first knuckle joint above the airman's eyebrow. The button holes for the two front brass buttons should not be edged with yellow/gold thread. It should also have a cap badge as in this picture.

Junior ranks



Commissioned Officers





The Sargent pilots uniform: It looks as if you have also given him the rank of a Pilot Officer , there should be no blue and black stripe around the cuff of the sleeve. The Sargent's stripes should also be larger, and the shoulder flash smaller. (note also belt buckle).






Lastly The sheepskin trousers would not have been worn at this stage of the war as Irvin jacket were still a private purchase rather than standard issue (mostly by officers who had the money, but not exclusively) They may have been worn by Aircrew doing duties that exposed them to extreme temperatures but were not used in any quantity until later in the war when they were widely issued to Bomber crews flying at night, at altitude over occupied Europe.



Just realized the aircrew man in flying overalls is supposed to be RAF, what's with the handbag ? I can already hear the shouting and curses as Aircrew try to clamber through the tight confines of an aircraft with that bag catching on every possible object. If it supposed to be a charts/map case then a canvas brief case would have been more usual. I thought originally he was Luftwaffe, see picture of flying overalls (Sidcot, fur collar is detachable )for better representation. Some pilots however wore flying dungarees, more so in hot weather, Air Vice Marshal Keith Park was famous for his white flying dungarees.



N.B Above pic is NOT Sir Keith Park

Links:

http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.blitzandpeaces.co.uk/Museum/WW2%2520Militaria/WW2%2520RAF%2520PHOTOS/thumbs/BRITISH%2520RAF%2520WARRANT%2520OFFICERS%2520PEAKE D%2520HAT%2520WITH%2520METAL%2520BADGE%2520FRONT.j pg&imgrefurl=http://www.blitzandpeaces.co.uk/Museum/WW2%2520Militaria/WW2%2520RAF%2520PHOTOS/main.asp&usg=__lJNmPH2cgy1A6UA5uEETNHJrRXA=&h=180& w=180&sz=9&hl=en&start=107&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=NbbHt ztj5_gvmM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=101&prev=/images%3Fq%3Draf%2Bhats%26ndsp%3D21%26hl%3Den%26cl ient%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-GBfficial%26sa%3DN%26start%3D105%26um%3D1

[philip.ed]

Originally Posted by jocko417

Nice job, as stated above PLEASE let us help you with photos of period flying gear used by the RAF.

Agree that no British RAF pilot would have worn 'ENGLAND' shoulder flashes, country titles were worn by those serving with the RAF/Commonwealth outside of their home country. So, an RCAF officer would wear CANADA titles in the UK but not in Canada. Also, all non-British below officer rank wore 'shoulder eagles' not country titles.



Eagle's head would always point to the wearer's rear.

Another thing, you've copied the insignia from a modern RAF uniform. The crowns on the cap badge and wings should be a dome shape, as they were during King George VI's reign, not the heart shape adopted after the coronation of Elizabeth II. WWII-era crowns were like this:





Note the brim of the cap is the same blue-grey material, NOT black leather.

There should not be pockets on the sheepskin Irvin flying jacket, and no metal snaps on the sheepskin trousers.

BTW, don't recognize this type of flying suit:



I can give you pics of the type of suits worn during the BoB.

The life jackets pre-war were greenish, guys would later paint over them with yellow so they would be more visible in the Channel.

Original Green:



Here is the type of microphone that should be on the Oxygen mask, the one you have didn't appear until the end of the Battle, most guys would have these:




Keep up the great work, and please, let us help!

+1 (Although showing repro items may not be the best option ) However, I have the 32 pattern vest here and it is not hard to model. Colour isn't too much of an issue as the range varied, but make sure (Oleg) you put the stencils in. Note: the sefton vest shown has the FRONT stamping slightly off; there weren't visible flicks on the letter R on the original stamping. Again I can show clear information on these matters *which I sent you Oleg*

Looking at the pics again, the irvin does not have any pockets, and the microphone shown is the wrong type, and does not have the oxygen tube coming out of the bottom: the tube came out of the left side (when worn) of the mask, to which the oxygen hose attached.

[brando]

As stated earlier, I think it's very important to remember the general griminess of the buildings in wartime Britain, London especially. There were fourteen mainline terminus stations - Blackfriars, Cannon Street, Charing Cross, Euston, Fenchurch Street, King's Cross, Liverpool Street, London Bridge, Moorgate, Marylebone, Paddington, St. Pancras, Victoria and Waterloo. All of them were served by coal-burning steam locomotives hauling trainloads of produce into the capital city, every hour of every day! In addition to the passenger stations mentioned above there were also freight termini like Somers Town, situated adjacent to Kings Cross, where all the potato traffic of the country arrived. London was the major distribution node for the South of England for farm produce and much else besides.

I'm sorry to be getting off the point here What I'm trying to stress is that London ran on coal. It burned in every domestic fireplace, fired all the power stations, ran the railways and shipping fleet and was turned into gas at the coking plants. It was everywhere - and its effluent stained every building in the whole city! It was not until the mid-sixties when steam power was phased out, and the Clean Air Act was made law, that work started on cleaning the civic buildings of London. This overall griminess is essential to show the true condition of 30's London.

brando

[kendo65]

Blown away by the knowledge and enthusiasm of some of the people on this forum.

What a great resource for Oleg to tap into and benefit from.

Here's hoping all these 'details' and advice help to make SOW as great as we're hoping for when it's released.

By the way Oleg, is that release still going to be in time for the 70th anniversary of the battle?

[Chaos]

Originally Posted by kendo65

Blown away by the knowledge and enthusiasm of some of the people on this forum.

Yes, really nice except... this is a flightsimulator, not a fashion show or a museum showpiece. Although i appreciate the attention to detail I hope this doesn't detract from other, imo more pressing matters, like AI, flightmodelling and systems modelling. Too much focus is on the graphics' side of things if you ask me. We have yet to see anything from the simulation part of this game...

[Zorin]

Originally Posted by Chaos

Yes, really nice except... this is a flightsimulator, not a fashion show or a museum showpiece. Although i appreciate the attention to detail I hope this doesn't detract from other, imo more pressing matters, like AI, flightmodelling and systems modelling. Too much focus is on the graphics' side of things if you ask me. We have yet to see anything from the simulation part of this game...

For the 1000000 time, the graphic designers on the team are NOT building th code and neither have the coding guys chained to their monitors to admire what they have done instead of creating the best AI and whatever else code related. Please, get that in your head!

[Baron]

Originally Posted by Zorin

For the 1000000 time, the graphic designers on the team are NOT building th code and neither have the coding guys chained to their monitors to admire what they have done instead of creating the best AI and whatever else code related. Please, get that in your head!

Exept, the game wont be released before the nitpicking is done (U do know who Oleg is, right?), and that could take eons by the looks of things right now.

Think about it.