Friday 2010-01-22 Screenshots AND Discussion Thread

[Avimimus]

It's also important to realise that the eye, muscular system have some ability to compensate for vibration and the human mind has an ability to interpret movement. The subjective impression of shaking may be much less for a human being in the actual plane than for a human watching a recording made with a camera on that plane.

So, it would be nice if this were a customisable feature.

[ZaltysZ]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

As stated before (and after) by a few people our brains tend to make us ignore the bad effect, my point is that when we try to concentrate on the gun sights this would be one of the times when it would be noticable. You would need to keep your head in a relatively fixed position (within the viewing angle of the refector sight) and thats when you'ld notice the movement.

It is not that hard with reflector sight, but with iron sight it is. Rise of Flight combined with TrackIR gives good feeling how hard it is to align sights for precise shots while maneuvering and constantly looking around. However, this is true only if you don't use any "magic" button to center the camera.

Eyes (or brains) don't filter the movements in sense of image processing. Instead, they are stabilized on the point where you look. This is possible due to vestibular system, which allows us to feel rotation and linear acceleration. This system allows us to feel when we fall, are pushed, turned and etc. (it even helps us to walk in complete darkness). Also, it sends signals to eyes, so that eyes will compensate for head movement and turn towards the point we want to look at.

Magnitude of effect depends on individual, but in case of vertigo (i.e. too much spinning) stabilization of eyes might become less effective or completely off. So, after multiple barrel rolls you may temporary think that plane shakes much more than before.

[airmalik]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I must say I'm a bit jelous and would love to see some of your footage.

Please check your PM.

I went out flying again to see exactly how turbulence looks like from a light plane - hey anything for research

It's quite smooth flying in the winter so it took a while to find turbulent air. Wasn't too bumpy but I noticed that at times there was enough shaking to make reading the instrument panel difficult but at the same time if I looked outside, it wasn't difficult to focus on any particular spot.

Looking at the spitfire video again, it seems to be similar in the respect that the view outside isn't as bumpy as the interior. Of course that also has to do with the proximity of the cockpit to the pilot but I think it's closer to reality than I thought previously. I guess while flying I'm mostly looking out and don't notice the shaky interior except when I'm consciously trying to read the instruments.

cheers!

[ZaltysZ]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

I have my pilots licences (though it has been a few years since I flew last) and in my opinion the head shake is probably under modeled if anything.

Modeling of head shake is harder to do than it may look. You can't simply shake camera in the same way as real head is shaken, because then you will get a feeling that it shakes too much. It will be so, because in reality eyes can compensate for the movement of head, but in game they can't as we don't move of course and see only shaking picture. The simple example is the book reading in the car. Despite you can still read it while car is moving, you won't be able to read it in the video, if it has been filmed by high speed high resolution camera attached to your head.

Head shake is almost always lowered down in sims for simulation of eyes compensation and sake of playability. I would say, we should not be concerned about it too much until we get a chance to test it in game. Videos do not depict such things well.

[HFC_Dolphin]

I'm not an expert in real flying, but I think that the shaking we saw in the video was caused because of change of flaps and hard stick movements· maybe in connection with some strong wind.

Anyway, Luthier can explain better as he was the one flying in this video.
Nevertheless, it's pretty obvious that everything is still under heavy tweaking and that SoW team will need our opinion in such matters mostly during beta period. (That's why, after all, this was not an official video release.)

[HFC_Dolphin]

By the way, please keep in mind that especially about WW2 planes' behaviour, Oleg has excellent feedback by a real pilot who's actually flying these birds.
I know the man and I'm sure we can rest assured that he knows what to tell to Oleg and Team.
I'm also sure that Oleg and Team can implement all good feedback in the game. They can do it better than anyone else in the game industry.

Let's wait a bit for official video releases.

[Insuber]

Originally Posted by HFC_Dolphin

I'm not an expert in real flying, but I think that the shaking we saw in the video was caused because of change of flaps and hard stick movements· maybe in connection with some strong wind.

Anyway, Luthier can explain better as he was the one flying in this video.
Nevertheless, it's pretty obvious that everything is still under heavy tweaking and that SoW team will need our opinion in such matters mostly during beta period. (That's why, after all, this was not an official video release.)

+1!

And add to that the engine vibrations at some point. So, exaggerated or not, I'd like to think that we have something nice and original modeled there (turbulence under clouds, engine vibrations, high G stutter), requiring tweaking and fine tuning maybe. Don't look at the finger, look at the moon instead ... .

Regards,
Insuber

[airmalik]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

Hey everyone is entitled to their opinions.

I have my pilots licences (though it has been a few years since I flew last) and in my opinion the head shake is probably under modeled if anything.

Heres a small video from a head cam in a light plane doing aerobatics

Hand held/head mounted cameras always exaggerate the amount of shaking. I've tried simple mounts on the wing strut and landing gear and it's always a struggle to get steady footage. Hand held cameras aren't much better unless the cameraman is very good at damping the little bumps felt while flying but not necessary 'seen'. The lens in this video isn't very wide angle which helps. Just yesterday I was out flying (ultralight) with a friend who was shooting video from the right seat and while editing that video I had to junk pretty much every clip where he tried to zoom even a little. Even at the widest angle the video was shaky at times. The amount of shake in the video was NOTHING like I experienced while flying. So I don't think that camera footage can be used to determine the amount of shake we should see in flight sims.

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by 13th Hsqn Protos

Cheap shot all you like...... I know I have brought about positive change in this sim.

Oh, sorry, you weren't joking? What positive change is that, then?

Anyway, awesome update and video...still a bit rough around the edges, don't think anyone could deny that.

I think that zaelu made some good points, don't think the language barrier helps, everyone jumping at him because they thought he said that there were no dynamic shadows, when all he meant was that already knew they were in the game so he didn't find it as surprising and jaw-dropping as a lot of people seem to.

[zaelu]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

I think that zaelu made some good points, don't think the language barrier helps, everyone jumping at him because they thought he said that there were no dynamic shadows, when all he meant was that already knew they were in the game so he didn't find it as surprising and jaw-dropping as a lot of people seem to.

Exactly, if I was to speak my words (even with my bad accent ) and not write them everyone would had understood from my "tone" what I was meaning.

For people that say that I don't know what the reflex visor work... well is quite possible, I don't work in that area but I knew what is doing as I saw it in many movies on the net how the cross-hair stays fixed while camera is moving and I also play DCS Black Shark that has a better representation of the reflex gun-sight in its HUD and has native 6DoF so you can see it working.

@Skoshi Tiger and others that find the movie from SoW representing good or insufficient head shake I want to tell you this.

An honest question and not an "implying" one: Did you ever flew in a plane having attached to your head a camera? Did you watch the video afterwards and have a feeling that you didn't actually "experience" that tremor and shaking?

What I am saying is the shaking in that movie is just for "cinematic" effect and is not depicting reality... you know... simulation. If the aircraft is shaking violently in bad weather we notice it... we even "see" it if we want to check it out but, when we work in those conditions our eyes, brain and mind filter it out. When you add it as a "special effect" you cannot filter it out and it becomes a hinder to the working and is not a good simulation to aggravate the bad environment.

Is like when you go to a 3D movie and you see objects in 3D but then the "cineast" wanted to make an emphasis on some plan of attention and he made one object in middle plan of the image clear and one object closer to the viewer in blur like out of focus. Now, as long as you go with story you will not notice it... you will even more dive into the action but, if you observe the out of focus object and look at it the spell is broken, your mind will try to focus it and then observe it can't do it and then will understand is just a trick.

The same is with this shaking effect, as long as you go with the cinematic effect is nice... but as soon as you try to actually make a dogfight in that shaking plane you will see it's unrealistic and hindering and you will see that in effect you are still, the gun-sight is still in respect to your movements but the cockpit is wobbling around like crazy... the spell is broken.

I sure hope this effect can be toggled or adjustable in final release so everyone would be happy... I will use it if I make a movie though .

I had filmed a bit with a helmet mounted camera and I noticed what I was saying above many times. The movie is shaking like crazy but I cannot remember all that movement. The movement comes from vibrations but also from attention shifting which cannot be (yet) represented in games, maybe some neat depth of field trick that shifts via input from your eyes will do it in 20 years from now. In the little movie bellow you will see that while I ride the bike the camera tremors like hell (I don't recall that tremor) and while flying the motodelta the movie is pretty still, just movements from attention shifting and little actual shaking of the wing that do appear like in the movies, you are still and the plane itself moves but, are not how they are perceived in real time.

Here is the little movie. I was trying to keep my head very still and also the motodelta is a great steady-cam platform but, it still moves differently that I perceived it. And the movie has the worst shaking parts cut out for obvious reasons .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yNafzMSqj8

Please note that I don't say I am some sort of an expert giving lessons just making some observations of my own... if they are right maybe they help. And sorry if my post is too long.