Title update update

[Panzergranate]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

It has to do with the fact that you could have saved yourself and ourselves a lot of moaning had you waitied to see if the game had any problems instead of buying it on release.

FYI, I think you mean "moot" - unless you meant to make a new oxymoron. I'm saying that, in my opinion, the game is good, patch or no patch - that makes it still my opinion irrespective of the patch.

So if one buys a new car and the gear box doesn't work in top gear then one shouldn't moan because all the other gears work fine??

Weird logic man.....

Generally folks do expect things to work 100% fine, as implied on the box, not 90% or 80% fine.

The problem with fixing the flight model errors on the consols is, I think, next to impossible, due to the attributes for each aircraft being taken from the DVD. On a PC the game is installed on a hard drive and an aircraft's individual attributes can be tampered with.

It is a shame that a few aircraft are un-useable because of this and is akin to buying a case of beer only to discover that a few bottles are stale.

Let's just enjoy the ones that are fine.

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

So if one buys a new car and the gear box doesn't work in top gear then one shouldn't moan because all the other gears work fine??

Weird logic man.....

It's only weird if you apply it to your not-very-applicable analogy instead of the case in point. Drawing an analogy between mild problems with a low cost item and a significant problem with a high cost item doesn't stack up.

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

Generally folks do expect things to work 100% fine, as implied on the box, not 90% or 80% fine.

And yet generally, they don't work fine. Games (and software in general) have always had and always will have bugs and design issues. For almost the first week of MW2's release I could count the days by the version number. In the grand scheme of things, BoP is not as broken as people make out. And over-dramatising it's problems certainly doesn't help an already small community gain any more support.

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

The problem with fixing the flight model errors on the consols is, I think, next to impossible, due to the attributes for each aircraft being taken from the DVD. On a PC the game is installed on a hard drive and an aircraft's individual attributes can be tampered with.

At least one (P51) is listed in the fixes, and entire maps have been patched on other games, so it is possible. It could be as simple as changing the code from Load ("E:\some_file") to Load ("C:\some_file").

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

It is a shame that a few aircraft are un-useable because of this and is akin to buying a case of beer only to discover that a few bottles are stale.

OK, lets use your analogy... You've bought a crate of forty beers, drunk half of them then found out that 2 are stale. Do you return the crate and spend the next 2 months moaning about it, or just drink the 38 good ones, remember the good times and chalk it up to experience?

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

Let's just enjoy the ones that are fine.

Some of us do, while others refuse to believe that is possible.

[The M00ps]

Just because I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in, here's my list of what I consider to be undeniably broken:

1) the crash bug

2) planes at a distance are visible, then become invisible before they become visible again

3) no brakes for flight sticks

4) when switching to map view, plane flips over and spirals toward the ground (worse in single mission)


Things that really should be fixed, but are more subjective than the above:

1) persistent multiplayer lobby (why does any modern game not do this???)

2) forced cockpit view for multiplayer

3) flight models for P51, FW190

4) lack of bombsight view

5) horrendous dead zone for flight sticks (I understand this is a 360 issue, but I'm feeling bitchy)

6) ability to kick players from lobby

7) correct the 'no available servers' message

[Ancient Seraph]

Originally Posted by The M00ps

Just because I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in, here's my list of what I consider to be undeniably broken:
(list)

I agree with this list, except for the map view part. This only happens in single missions because then you enable the AI for your plane, since you can switch to other planes/pilots through map view in some missions. Not sure why they'd spiral to the ground though .

[winny]

I already threw my 2p's worth in.

Just wanted to say that this thread is brilliant.. GD brilliant.

Very entertaining.

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by The M00ps

Just because I feel compelled to throw my 2 cents in, here's my list of what I consider to be undeniably broken:

1) the crash bug

2) planes at a distance are visible, then become invisible before they become visible again

3) no brakes for flight sticks

4) when switching to map view, plane flips over and spirals toward the ground (worse in single mission)


Things that really should be fixed, but are more subjective than the above:

1) persistent multiplayer lobby (why does any modern game not do this???)

2) forced cockpit view for multiplayer

3) flight models for P51, FW190

4) lack of bombsight view

5) horrendous dead zone for flight sticks (I understand this is a 360 issue, but I'm feeling bitchy)

6) ability to kick players from lobby

7) correct the 'no available servers' message

Yeah this top list summary is pretty much spot on in my opinion (assuming by "crash bug" you mean people crashing and score not going to the killer? Because generally the term "crash bug" means a bug that ceases operation of the game and either locks or reboots the console. Which BoP has, but it is very, very rare...)

I only agree with about half of your subjective list, but then it's subjective I'm sure I could think of some to replace them. The no brakes on flightsticks doesn't bother me, but I can't land in sim with the pad aviator layout either because of button conflicts, for instance.

But my argument is - the game is still bloody good fun in spite of these problems. But I guess that is also subjective, and for people that can't see past its problems and have fun with it, I'm sorry for them because they missed out on a great game. But to blame the devs and/or publishers for their negative outlook is, IMO, wrong. They are just throwing back in their faces the dev's hard work, and a gutsy move from the publishers.

And no, I'm not brown-nosing. I just appreciate the blood, sweat and tears that go into these products. Especially as the patch was done without financial backing from the publisher.

[FOZ_1983]

Originally Posted by Panzergranate

So if one buys a new car and the gear box doesn't work in top gear then one shouldn't moan because all the other gears work fine??

Weird logic man.....

Generally folks do expect things to work 100% fine, as implied on the box, not 90% or 80% fine.

The problem with fixing the flight model errors on the consols is, I think, next to impossible, due to the attributes for each aircraft being taken from the DVD. On a PC the game is installed on a hard drive and an aircraft's individual attributes can be tampered with.

It is a shame that a few aircraft are un-useable because of this and is akin to buying a case of beer only to discover that a few bottles are stale.

Let's just enjoy the ones that are fine.

Ok then, to save messing around with individual stats, lets just make the P51 use the same stat as the spitfire XVI, granted its not accurate, but it will do! and will make it fun to fly.

not going to happen though mate, we'll just wait and see how it turns out.


patience is a virtue

[David603]

Originally Posted by FOZ_1983

Ok then, to save messing around with individual stats, lets just make the P51 use the same stat as the spitfire XVI, granted its not accurate, but it will do! and will make it fun to fly.

Same problem, I would think. You would need to alter the P51D's data to use the Spit's Flight Model, which would again mean altering what's on the disc.

However, other games get round problems like this, so I think there is a system where the console has a small internal hard drive used for patches and console updates, and the operating system is coded so that if one version of a file exists on the DVD and there is a different version of this file that has been downloaded as a patch, the console recognises the patch version and ignores the file on the DVD.

This would allow a new Flight Model for the P51 to be included in a patch, allong with new FMs for any other aircraft that needed changes.

[SEE]

I understand and accept that many will be very disappointed with the current gameplay flaws and everyone is aware of these by now. Others appreciate that the game is 'acceptable as is' and that there is nothing better available for consloles despite these flaws. The game was designed for a console market and incorporated the Arcade Level in which all the planes were easy to fly and suited the gamepad. Sales for this game have been less than desirable and in hindsight it would have been better to aim it for sim enthusiasts who are stuck with consoles and seem to have the most gripes with it. First, bitching about the flaws is important in order to put pressure on the release of a patch. Continuing to play the game despite these flaws is also important to flag up that we want this game and that it is worth the investment to release any future patches. Both camps have a valuable role to play so bitch all you like but play the game too.......................we are all winners that way.

[phlux]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

But my argument is - the game is still bloody good fun in spite of these problems.

I can say without question The M00ps is in agreement on this, I fly with him every week. The items on his list are things we discuss regularly, but at the same time we are talking about it while we are flying and having a blast.

Originally Posted by SEE

Both camps have a valuable role to play so bitch all you like but play the game too.......................we are all winners that way.

+1

What makes me laugh are the folks that have said on more than one occasion that they are selling their disk, console, car, house, dog, wife or whatever else and are never posting again yet they continue to come on here and rant and rave. I can't understand why people get enjoyment out of telling us we are wrong, or calling people brown nosers, butt kissers, derrier sniffers and other creative names for loving this game. If they are fed up with it fine, understandable, but leave those of us who still enjoy it to play and discuss it in peace.