I-153: cheap or not?

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

*Cheering and cries of joy begin, as Soviet Ace steps into the thread to give his two cents*

Errr...yes. OK.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

...but what you have to understand. Is that ANY mono-plane, that would try and turn with a bi-plane would fail miserably in a turning fight. The reason why, is because the bi-plane is slower and since it's slower can turn faster.

It turns faster because it has 2 sets of wings (hence the name bi[nary]-plane) which gives it (almost) double lift. So when it puts it's wingtip to Earth all that lift converts to turning ability.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

It really doesn't matter, if the I-153 Chaika or the other two bi-planes I mentioned before have an advantage over the other planes; which in real life they would have because any bi-plane can out turn a mono-plane. The point is, if your flying an I-153 or someone else is flying it. Just BnZ the damn thing. It may not be as fun, but it is YOUR (and their) fault for trying to turn and get into it's turning radius. Don't blame the plane, just because you've been smart or dumb enough to take advantage of 1-2 tactics, the I-153 has over all the others. (The second advantage, would be rolling )

You're missing the point - we all know how to defeat it. But it's boring. And it's rare that the majority of players will adopt an anti-153 style and will instead ignore it and go about their turning fights. Which means the 153 just picks people off. Hence, cheap.

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

Errr...yes. OK.


It turns faster because it has 2 sets of wings (hence the name bi[nary]-plane) which gives it (almost) double lift. So when it puts it's wingtip to Earth all that lift converts to turning ability.


You're missing the point - we all know how to defeat it. But it's boring. And it's rare that the majority of players will adopt an anti-153 style and will instead ignore it and go about their turning fights. Which means the 153 just picks people off. Hence, cheap.

Yes, I know having two sets of wings, also gives it a better advantage as well, but speed is not everything. So actually, if you tried turning an I-153 Chaika with an old WW1 Fokker DVII or maybe even a Sopwith of some kind, the Fokker or Sopwith would outturn the Chaika because it's speed and radius of turn.

And I think your problem isn't exactly with the I-153, but how to deal with it. I know BnZ isn't fun, and that's why I stick with either the Yak's, La's, Polikarpov's, and other low altitude planes. Because TnB is what I like best.

And like I already said, it's not your fault or their's if your or them are flying the I-153, and get so many kills because your enemy isn't smart enough to realize that the I-153 has a HUGE advantage in turning. And once again, if your dumb enough to try and turn with a I-153 (Sim or Realistic) then you deserve to be shot down because you tried turning with it, and knew the outcome would be fatal for you.

If you really don't like dealing with the I-153, then just do some BnZ passes; or just completely IGNORE it entirely. The player flying it, will probably just give up trying to chase after once he realizes he cant. It's not hard to understand, that if your not flying the I-153 Chaika, you have every advantage except roll and turning. If Erick Hartmann can get 352 kills, using BnZ; then I'm sure it wasn't that boring. And if it is boring for you, then just go after the other planes. Common sense is something important when flying.

Remember, "Beware of the Hun in the Sun."

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Yes, I know having two sets of wings, also gives it a better advantage as well, but speed is not everything. So actually, if you tried turning an I-153 Chaika with an old WW1 Fokker DVII or maybe even a Sopwith of some kind, the Fokker or Sopwith would outturn the Chaika because it's speed and radius of turn.

I didn't say anything about speed, I said lift. The two things are not the same, although one is a function of the other. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand the physics of a wing, but your paragraph makes me think maybe not.

And I don't care about how it compares to other real world bi-planes. We're talking about the game, and specifically online battles.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

And I think your problem isn't exactly with the I-153, but how to deal with it. I know BnZ isn't fun, and that's why I stick with either the Yak's, La's, Polikarpov's, and other low altitude planes. Because TnB is what I like best.

Then you think wrong. As I've stated, dealing with them is a no-brainer. But all the counter-arguments in this thread seem to assume a one on one battle. That is no problem - I will eat them up and spit out the tail fin. My issue is with a big online dogfight, where the majority of people are in spits, 109s or whatever, and one or two guys will exploit the cheapness of the 153 (in this situation) to rack up kills.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

And like I already said, it's not your fault or their's if your or them are flying the I-153, and get so many kills because your enemy isn't smart enough to realize that the I-153 has a HUGE advantage in turning. And once again, if your dumb enough to try and turn with a I-153 (Sim or Realistic) then you deserve to be shot down because you tried turning with it, and knew the outcome would be fatal for you.

Well, 153 pilots don't have the plane forced on them, so of course it's their fault they're flying one. And they fly one because they know they can get a lot of cheap kills, exactly because the majority of players will not implement counter-153 tactics and will instead just go about their usual turning battles.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

If you really don't like dealing with the I-153, then just do some BnZ passes; or just completely IGNORE it entirely. The player flying it, will probably just give up trying to chase after once he realizes he cant. It's not hard to understand, that if your not flying the I-153 Chaika, you have every advantage except roll and turning. If Erick Hartmann can get 352 kills, using BnZ; then I'm sure it wasn't that boring. And if it is boring for you, then just go after the other planes. Common sense is something important when flying.

Remember, "Beware of the Hun in the Sun."

I do ignore them for the most part and that is when they are a nuisance. The roll and turning advantage are exactly what makes them so cheap because of the nature of online battles.

I think the problem is you are coming at this from a real world view point, and I am coming at it purely from the view point of the game. Unless Erick Hartmann plays on a console with a controller, I don't care about him.

And please stop being so patronising.

[Ancient Seraph]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

I didn't say anything about speed, I said lift. The two things are not the same, although one is a function of the other. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand the physics of a wing, but your paragraph makes me think maybe not.

Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed.
Low speed = Low turn radius, and high rate of turn. The extra lift provided by the bi-wings only means it can maintain a way lower airspeed, thus a lower turn radius and high rate of turn.

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by Ancient Seraph

Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed.
Low speed = Low turn radius, and high rate of turn. The extra lift provided by the bi-wings only means it can maintain a way lower airspeed, thus a lower turn radius and high rate of turn.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. How well can you turn when your elevators have been shot out?

Lift is only lift when you are flying with level wing tips. As soon as you roll your plane onto it's side, that lift then becomes turn. Which is why you lose altitude if your wings are exactly perpendicular to the ground.

Lift and turn are relative to the ground, not the plane. But the force resulting from the shape of the wing is relative to the orientation of the plane. So as you change the plane's orientation, you alter the effect of the wing relative to the Earth. What you say would be true if you use the rudder to turn. But you don't. You roll the plane onto it's side then use the elevator to turn.

Again, I'm not going to go into the physics of a wing because you can google it if you don't already know, but the upward force on a wing (i.e. lift on a level plane) is a function of it's forward speed (and curvature of the top surface).

[IamKFAM]

...and angle of attack...

[dkwookie]

The top and bottom of this is an 153 in a team battle match is like playing a game of football and someones dog runs on the pitch biting the ball. Its anoying as f**k
Yeah you can continue playing and try to ignore it but sooner or later you will get an urge to kick it into next week

[Soviet Ace]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

I didn't say anything about speed, I said lift. The two things are not the same, although one is a function of the other. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand the physics of a wing, but your paragraph makes me think maybe not.

And I don't care about how it compares to other real world bi-planes. We're talking about the game, and specifically online battles.


Then you think wrong. As I've stated, dealing with them is a no-brainer. But all the counter-arguments in this thread seem to assume a one on one battle. That is no problem - I will eat them up and spit out the tail fin. My issue is with a big online dogfight, where the majority of people are in spits, 109s or whatever, and one or two guys will exploit the cheapness of the 153 (in this situation) to rack up kills.


Well, 153 pilots don't have the plane forced on them, so of course it's their fault they're flying one. And they fly one because they know they can get a lot of cheap kills, exactly because the majority of players will not implement counter-153 tactics and will instead just go about their usual turning battles.


I do ignore them for the most part and that is when they are a nuisance. The roll and turning advantage are exactly what makes them so cheap because of the nature of online battles.

I think the problem is you are coming at this from a real world view point, and I am coming at it purely from the view point of the game. Unless Erick Hartmann plays on a console with a controller, I don't care about him.

And please stop being so patronising.

I'm not trying to patronize you, just telling you that your complaining about a plane which in REAL LIFE had this advantage over all other planes of the time, and I think that since it's the ONLY advantage this plane has, it's fine they exploit it. If they're dumb, then they're going to chase you but learn pretty quickly that they can't. And also, they had weaker guns than the other planes so their damage isn't as great because of the increased armor on the later planes. I mean do you really think, that fighter pilots back in WW2 actually didn't use their planes advantages over their opponent? That's just what you have to do with the I-153 and going against it.

Now, Seraph is correct. If you are going at 230mph in some plane, and you try and turn with a plane which is just going 150mph. Then the plane going 150mph is going to have the turning advantage because of it's slower speed. This doesn't just have to do with the I-153, but the I-16 as well. Try it sometime, fly against a I-16 and fly something like a Spitfire both planes must be at 100% throttle. Then you'll see which plane out turns the other. Turning radius has NOTHING to do with lift. Speed does because you need a certain amount of speed going over the wings (ie the amount of air being brought a crossed) so your plane doesn't stall and drop out of the air into some spin. The reason the I-153 has a better chance of staying in the air is because of its amount of wings; and the little air needed to actually keep it in the air unlike mono-planes which only have two wings, and stall much more than any biplane would.

[InfiniteStates]

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

...your complaining about a plane which in REAL LIFE had this advantage over all other planes of the time, and I think that since it's the ONLY advantage this plane has, it's fine they exploit it. ... I mean do you really think, that fighter pilots back in WW2 actually didn't use their planes advantages over their opponent? That's just what you have to do with the I-153 and going against it.

Dude, please stop citing real world examples. I appreciate your knowledge on the subject is vast, and I wouldn't dare compete with you on that playing field. But this discussion is about how the 153 fits in within the scope of online games, and not how it compares with other bi-planes of the era, tactics emplyed in it's use or how real pilots did with it. I know BoP is as realistic as we can get, but an online game is very, very, very different to an actual dogfight where you can lose your life.

Originally Posted by Soviet Ace

Now, Seraph is correct. If you are going at 230mph in some plane, and you try and turn with a plane which is just going 150mph. Then the plane going 150mph is going to have the turning advantage because of it's slower speed. This doesn't just have to do with the I-153, but the I-16 as well. Try it sometime, fly against a I-16 and fly something like a Spitfire both planes must be at 100% throttle. Then you'll see which plane out turns the other. Turning radius has NOTHING to do with lift. Speed does because you need a certain amount of speed going over the wings (ie the amount of air being brought a crossed) so your plane doesn't stall and drop out of the air into some spin. The reason the I-153 has a better chance of staying in the air is because of its amount of wings; and the little air needed to actually keep it in the air unlike mono-planes which only have two wings, and stall much more than any biplane would.

Seraph stated "Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed." which is wrong. A plane's lift and turn rate are one in the same thing applied to different spatial axis. "Lift" is simply opposing gravity. If you take that force and apply it perpendicular to gravity it becomes turn (in conjunction with another forward velocity component).

Yes, I know a slow moving thing can turn tighter than a fast moving thing. That is obvious if you try and walk around a corner and then run around it. The forward component of the velocity is much greater, therefore a much greater centri-petal acceleration is required to match the turn of a slower object. And I'm sure we all know that you need a calender to time how long it takes to do a 180 in a jet.

But if you're trying to tell me that the I-153 can turn tightly because it's engine doesn't pull it forwards fast, and not because it has nearly double the upward (relative to the plane) force of a mono-plane, you're wrong.

If that were the case, the tight turning circle could be countered by simply dropping your throttle to match, and it would be a non-issue.

[kozzm0]

Originally Posted by InfiniteStates

Seraph stated "Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed." which is wrong. A plane's lift and turn rate are one in the same thing applied to different spatial axis. "Lift" is simply opposing gravity. If you take that force and apply it perpendicular to gravity it becomes turn (in conjunction with another forward velocity component).

Yes, I know a slow moving thing can turn tighter than a fast moving thing. That is obvious if you try and walk around a corner and then run around it. The forward component of the velocity is much greater, therefore a much greater centri-petal acceleration is required to match the turn of a slower object. And I'm sure we all know that you need a calender to time how long it takes to do a 180 in a jet.

But if you're trying to tell me that the I-153 can turn tightly because it's engine doesn't pull it forwards fast, and not because it has nearly double the upward (relative to the plane) force of a mono-plane, you're wrong.

If that were the case, the tight turning circle could be countered by simply dropping your throttle to match, and it would be a non-issue.

Right, speed matters but in the sense of lift as a function of speed, because how fast you're going affects the amount of lift. Biplanes can generate that upward force at much slower speeds. Other planes can fly that slow without stalling, but they won't turn as many degrees per second flying at minimum-radius speed. The biplane's full-g maneuver speed is most plane's flat-scissor speed.

IF you try to fight a biplane close up, the intelligent thing to do is rather than try to get an inside angle, to use lag pursuit, maneuvering outside its turns and rolling to stay out of its guns plane, until it either loses sight of you or overestimates your 3D turn rate and overshoots by turning too fast. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to do against a competent pilot, and often fails because it involves concentrating on evasion before attack.

I think the "they shall not pass" mission, sums up the polikarpov's usefulness as a defensive plane. Though it's I-16 in the mission, I-153 would have had similar performance in that situation, chasing bf-109's away, waiting for them to come back (and down from 3000m) and chasing them away again. Point defense. It did a great job for what it was faced with. But in the game, dogfight mode isn't really supposed to be about that. It would be more appropriate as a local air-superiority element in Strike mode.

They could make things more interesting by adding other biplanes, then people could have biplane battles. The Germans and British had plenty of biplanes too.

You know what would be a great new mode for IL-2: the one most air combat was centered around, escort/interception. One side has a bunch of bombers to protect, and the other side has to shoot down the bombers. For the p51's, fw190's and jets.