Continued....
You had it painted in the Luftwaffe colours as well.
Yeah…exactly to the replica of the colours I had.
So, what was the 108 used for mainly?
To bring…uh, generals from the rear back to the front also…only for transport.
You have some beautiful pictures here…. Did you ever operate from the same fields as JG 51, JG 53...did you ever meet any of the pilots?
I have…after the war, not uh…during the war…during the war when they were shot down. But after the war I was…I met survived American Fighter aces and a few times invited…you know…up there is Douglas…(points to a picture)…the left one…with 2 wooden legs…and the middle one, was uh…was one of his…Squadron Commanders…
(Looking around he room I see a panel from Galland's F-4) Is this here an original?
This is a side panel from an airplane, you know.
This is an original?
Original, yeah…
Do you mind. If I take a look at it.
Oh yeah, it was taken from uh…the manufacture of the last year of the F... You see that little tag...see that little tag, that’s the manufacture of it. On the bottom left is an original Werk number plate. That was General Galland’s.
Wow! I have to take a picture of it before I go. You had to bail out before and use your parachute…
Yeah, six times…I belong to the Caterpillar Club. Six survived by parachute…it’s an international club.
What was it like the first time you used your parachute? You were obviously trained to use them…
No.
No? Really?
We were not trained, but, uh, when you use…when you HAVE to use them…then you use them - We didn’t give a shit about anything else.
(I start to laugh)
The first time my airplane was on fire…the motor, uh, flames were coming in, and had to get out fast. I still had my hands and my face burnt, you know…but uh…you get out fast.
You didn’t even think, you just pushed the canopy and jumped?
No, you just take…the canopy takes off. You just pull a lever and the canopy takes off…And you threw the…the belts from the airplane because you were tied down… and you just take ‘em off…take the stick… and fly and push it down… if you can still use it, because sometimes you cannot, uh…control the airplane anymore, no. Half a wing missing or both…I jumped six times I jumped...
Did you ever get used to it?
No…I never could get used to it.
When you did lose an airplane either due to a bad landing or enemy fire, how did you get a new one assigned to you when you got back to your airbase? Did you automatically get a new one?
There was always something there, some other airplane there. The Jagdgeschwader Squadron Commander always had 2 airplanes as well...
When new pilots came in…younger pilots….
They had to bring their own airplane with them.
Okay…so when a new models came out…because you had so many missions did you get priority over the newer pilots? Did you get the aircraft first then the younger pilots?
No, we didn’t do that. We didn’t get priority. We didn’t do it. Whoever came in last with the latest model, that’s his airplane, you see. Whoever it was a Corporal or, uh…it was a General it doesn’t matter who it was. We had other pilots, Corporal, Private with us you know, like…uh… the squadron got bigger and in rough shape…with a bunch of youngsters you know, all kinds of ‘em…Lieutenants, and…Sergeants. (Franz points to another photo) These guys together shot down within about 15 minutes, uh…24 B-24’s.
Wow, in 15 minutes! Did you always have the same wingman?
Uh, usually, yes…I kept ‘em. We usually flew with 4 people…another 3. Schwarm we’d call it….”Swarm”…it was a…a wingman and then again a leader and this also a wingman.
And you usually kept the same wingman.
Yeah…as long as he was there...
If your aircraft was being repaired, would you borrow someone else’s? I know you said there was always an extra one...
Yeah, if you wanted you could borrow…but let them fly their own airplane. For repairs…change the whole motor was in-fact four-hour job. And, uh, if you had holes in it, you’d just put tape on it to cover the holes. As long as nothing was…destroyed inside, y’know controls and so on…there they had special tools…
Did you fly with Edu Neumann?
Edu Neumann…that was my Gruppe Commander in Afrika... I met him 3 years ago…and he’s in poor shape now...getting old…91 years old…
Do you guys meet when you can…other pilots?
Yeah…I meet some of them…we are not of many left for JG27. We had a…a meeting and they took 3 different units together because there wasn’t too many pilots left…. I am one of the oldest ones - If I’m not the oldest one...except Neumann.
What was he like?
I did not fly with him… he didn’t do much flying though.
What about Gunter Rödel…
Yeah that’s Rödel there. (Franz points to a picture of a black and white officer posing on a desk with a phone on his ear)
Oh here on the left, the one with the phone?
Yeah. He was my, uh…firsts Squadron Commander...and I made my first missions I flew with him.
Did you learn quite a bit from him?
Oh yeah…he was good…
Out of all the pilots you have flown with was there one who made a really good lasting impression on you?
Uh, well…this depends...someone a year or so…I had a Sergeant...and he had a Ritterkreuz. And he, uh…he got shot down…uh…in Germany…over Germany. He had a Cross of Knights and then he got after he was killed...he got the one with oak leaves. He was only non-com (NCO) that had this got one.
What was his name?
Oh…damn…I’m terrible with names…my wife might know the name, she would know his name…
Did you as pilots always have regular training courses on escape and evasion, survival…
Yeah, we had them, but no one gave a shit. You lost everyday you lost a few pilots…everyday…and so…we are sitting there every night writing to a wife or to parents, you know…you’d have half a bottle of cognac besides you…because that’s the only way you could do it, you know. We’d have to write about what a “hero” he was, and so…late in the afternoon there’d be about 6…multiply by…by 2…but, uh…we were sitting out of the evening with all the other men, the liquor and the beer…and we were sitting in the office and writing…and we had to write it by hand…We couldn’t get the…the Master Sergeant to write the letters, no…YOU had to write the letters.
With new pilots…obviously you have better experience with the aircraft like the F and the G…did the new pilots have problems?
You’d put them in the middle…for the first few flights, you know…so they know what is going on. The…the new pilots they hardly could fly the 109…they had seventy or eighty hours of flying time. They had of heck of a time learning to fly the airplane…take off and land, you know. As I said, every pilot came with a plane. They came form the school and then they went to uh…to the manufacture, or someplace where they had the airplanes, and they would come with them…especially in Afrika.
In Afrika, was the tropical filter used just for takeoff?
Yes, for takeoff and landing you close it…because of the sand, you know…after you go about a couple of thousand feet high…and then you open it…
How many times were you out per day flying missions?
Sometimes three a day, three times, yeah…especially in Afrika. And we didn’t waste any time because if the bombers.
How long did it take for fatigue to hit you, tiredness, wanting to take a break?
I don’t know, I don’t remember…we had no time for fatigue.
Out of all the planes you’ve flown in your whole life, including like your 108…what was you favourite plane, from the day you started flying?
My favourite plane?…I had a Heinkel 70 …have you heard of it?
Yeah, it’s big plane.
It was like…looked like a Spitfire…only bigger, it was 6 seater. One pilot in the front, and in the middle down there, the passengers. It was a kind of a…how do you say it…a commuter plane…you bring a pilot from some, uh...airport to the main area…and I had it for…oh, I don’t know how long. I teached my students with it…I visited my girlfriends with it…on the weekend I could fly anywhere I wanted…
So that was your favourite?
Yeah! It was fast, you know. At the time it was the fastest airplane there was.
What year was this?
Uh…43 or 44…No, 33 or 34
There was a gunsite for a Me262 (EZ42)…my friend Roger waned me to ask you about it…
Yeah…on the 262 it adjusted itself for the speed and acceleration, so…it was a Revi too, for all aircraft types it was the Revis…but o the 262 you saw it in the windshield…the reflection.
Did you ever have any dogfights or battles, where you didn’t think you would make it back home, or uninjured?
Oh yeah, it happened quite often, but you don’t even think of it. We…we always uh…in the, the home defence we were always under...under...had less than the other side.
There were lots of American fighters, Germany had lots of fuel shortages and…
I can quite remember a night in ’43 in Afrika we flew over the Junkers 52’s transport planes with fuel and ammunition…and as we came over there, I had 6 airplanes with me…6 fighter planes as escort. We came over there, and the sky looked like a swarm of bees!…P-51s, you know… and uh…uh…Spitfires. Of course we were always short. I always made it home…but not quite…
Did the transport planes make it?
…no…
…Did you ever, just for fun, did you ever fly your plane without permission?
Oh yeah…we had also, uh…aerobatic planes, you know, little biplanes, and we went up and cut loose and just have yourself fun. We had those cloud, those… pillow clouds, and we’d fly around them. Looked like Blanket against the wall, you know.
What were your favourite memories?
I…I don’t know…I…one is I didn’t shoot this guy down… this guy down this B-17…Charlie Brown, I let him get away…I was talking yesterday with him. He might come here to our airshow. They want to make a film down there, I don’t want to. I just want to have my quiet peace, you know…that’s all.
Now…I’ve read the story…(Franz’s cat walks over, meows). If you downed one more plane, you could be nominated for a Knights Cross. It was pretty much illegal not to shoot an enemy aircraft down was it not?
Yeah, more or less. I didn’t do my job, I should have shot him down. If I wouldn’t have not seen a person I would have shot him down. I came from a…I was flying above, and uh...I figured out how to finish him off…I’d say I’d do it the normal way from the rear. And I came from the rear…and I was waited…waiting and gave the tail gunner a chance to lift the guns…the guns were hanging down, you know. And he never lifted the guns. And I came closer and closer…and at about 20 feet…and I saw him lying in there in his blood…so I couldn’t shoot. I flew up…next to his right side...and uh… the plane was bad, you know…much damage. I was surprised it flew even…I tried to get him to land…in Switzerland…because of the damage, I never saw so much… next to him, I flew for many minutes…until he got to the sea…and then I flew home…
Why did you stay with him for so long?
…Because I didn’t want anyone else to get him…
Wow…
Yeah…and it took him forty years to find me. In out Jagr magazine…we have this uh…this pilot magazine…(Franz pulls out a copy of a pilots magazine). He had an ad and…as looking for the pilot who let him go…now we meet every year. Charlie and I meet every year now. Right now I cannot fly I have an asthma you know…so I am not allowed to get insurance…because of the stupid air and air-conditioning in the airplane...it’s dangerous… you know…not too long ago a woman died in an airplane because of it.
So, when you came back from the B-17, were you scared at all, that someone might find out that you didn’t -
- I didn’t tell anybody. No definitely not… I couldn’t tell anyone…I couldn’t…I’d be court-martialled. I shot, on the same day I shot two B –17’s down, you know.
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