Campaigns as Axis?
 

I know the campaigns take you from the Western front to the Eastern front and even some Italian missions, but will you be able to fly as the Axis forces, or is that only in multiplayer? I really liked how the PC Sturmovik games let you tackle the battles from both sides.

Axis will be played on multiplayer.

You can also use Axis planes in Instant Action, which is basically the quick mission builder from the PC Il2s.

unfortunately modern day politics will not allow for console games to depict "playing as teh evil nazis" in single player

but for some reason we are allowed to kill endless amounts of them

Politically correct morons with pull will make sure the game gets boycotted. I wish we could.

Politically correct morons?

Why would anyone actually want to play a campaign as the Nazis?


It is one thing to play as them as just another skin in a storyless multiplayer, but a campaign? There was nothing good about the Nazis, and their evil is too real to too many people to bring their side home as some sort of entertainment.

It has nothing to do with politically correct, and everything to do with decency as a member of the human race.

MAYA, you know I am not exactly poltically correct, but a campaign as the Nazis would disgust me, and I actually wouldn't support any game that would even attempt such a thing.

Jeez, we aren't talking about a campaign where you directly helped Nazi's to kill Jews. What we are talking about is a set of missions as a German pilot. All the older PC Il2s have campaigns where you can play as Axis pilots.

Besides, you want to know which nation that you can play in campaign is guilty of worse war crimes than the Germans? Thats right, the Russians.

Not everyone was a 'evil'. Many of them were just doing their job like we do.

But here's something to make you think. Courtousy of trk29:

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=8027

A campagin implies to me story, and there is no Nazi story deserving of being told from their side.

Now setting up single missions with generic goals in a Nazi plane, is totally different.

So, by your standards, there is no campaign mode in Il2 Birds of Prey. Just a series of generic missions strung together with no background story.

And don't you understand, there is no such thing as clear cut black and white good vs evil in war, just shades of grey. At a guess, there won't be a mission where American or British bombers carpet bomb a city either.

Yeah they were doing their jobs, and of course they weren't all evil. The cause they were fighting for certainly was evil though, and it (the cause) deserves no glorification in a game.

Having been involved in the last Nazi-Flame war on this forum (apologies) can I just say HOLD your horses...

Playing as the axis would present very different tatical nuances aswell as very different planes. This is a game and , believe it or not, there were alot of decent pilots out there....amongst all the horrors of war there was honour in some men, and examples of which have already been published on this forum..Honorable men both allied and axis... Lets honour these knights of the sky, seeing as we are lucky enough to play a Game that gives the briefest of glimpses as to the magnitude of what they went through...

just sayin

peace (but not before I've shoot your props off:cool:) )

How do you figure that?

Even in the demo there was story.

Not glorified, but relived from their point of view.

There were plenty of Luftwaffe pilots who didn't want to fight and never thought they'd make it through the war.

so in instant action mode...will we be able to pilot an ME 163B or an ME 262 to take down allied bomber formations? that would be so cool to do

Certainly hope so. Both those planes are in trailers, and since they are fighters they should definitely be controllable.

I'm sure they will to, but the Me-163 has only 7 to 8 minutes of fuel incase none of you guys knew that. So you would definately NEED to watch your speed and fuel.

So you want a Nazi campaign where you play as people complaining about doing their evil job?


:P



There is no need to tell the story of Nazis from their point of view, unless their point of view is anti-nazi, which is then NOT playing a Nazi campaign.



I am all for being able to set up those single missions flying their technology, but there is absolutely no need for any sort of campaign for it.

I can make everyone's posts look negative if I try too.:rolleyes:

There was an interesting test carried out by an American scientist named Stanley Milgram in the late 1960s. He got a group of ordinary Americans, and devised an experiment where the subject thought he/she was administering a series of electrical shocks to another person whenever they made an incorrect answer. 65% of the test subjects repeatedly administered a voltage that resulted in the "victim" screaming in agony and thrashing around audibly.

The percentage was even higher if the subject could observe other people apparently participating in the experiment and administering the same high voltages to other "victims".

Given the same situation as your average concentration camp guard in Germany, let alone a more honourable service such as the Luftwaffe, most people would have done the same.

And is it true that you dont get to begin action on the ground having to get airborn? How freaking cool would it be to be able to take off in a 163 with the dolly having to be jetisoned...it could climb to 30000 feet in like 2 and a half minutes...yeah then you only had about 7 minutes of fuel to make a couple of passed through the formation

Hi Versa!

I always play both campaigns in games like this. I play Panzer General, Iron Storm, Allied General, etc etc because of the what if situations. It would be hypocritical of me to say I don't like playing as the Nazi's or Japanese in CoD WaW, its fun. Hell I like gunning down innocent people in Grand Theft auto, doesn't mean I support real world scumbags. I am not a Nazi and nobody I know is a Nazi, what hitler did to the Jews is terrible but I am looking at it strictly from a military game stand point. I enjoy playing games as Napoleon too, and he was considered one of the Anti Christs. I think people read a little too much into this. Its fun to play the bad guys. Not to mention the German Weapons are sooooo much cooler.

Oh Versa also, not the entire German army was involved in the atocoties. Mostly SS and Waffen SS, the regualr Vermacht army was just like an American Joe, fighting because they are professional soldiers. Same goes for many of the pilots. Were there Zeolots? Sure. Are they any different from any conquering Army from Ceaser, to napoleon, to Atttlla the Hun, etc etc.

Like I said, what if scenarios are fascinating and to a history buff like me I expect it. Hell, channels like the History channel and the military channel would be off the air completely if they didn't have shows like Wings of the Luftwaffe and Hitlers bodyguards. LOL

Also, much of our military was built on captured or learned German military tactics and hardware. Our entire space program started with Von Brown, a captured Nazi. So many other instances where we borrowed, stole, or used the spoils of war from the so called evil doers.

I dont think anyone should have to qualify, or explain why they would want to play as a Luftwaffe pilot...its a freaking video game..thats all that it is...Ive never gunned down cops or innocent civilians and I never will ..but it sure as hell is fun to do in GTA4. You have to play as the Japs in Battlefield 1943...and its fun running around with your melee samuari sword killing Marines and I prefer flying the Zero in that game to the Corsair..so what..I have a blast playing through JFK Reloaded from time to time...again doesnt make me an assassin or sympathetic to assassins. Now if someone ever released Sim Concentration Camp there might be a big PR problem but I would probably play that as well because its only a game...

Most of what I wanted to say has already been said.

To think that by playing the Axis forces in a flight simulator is somehow glorifying the "evil Nazi cause" is a little narrow-minded. The horror stories of extermination camps and other war atrocities were committed, as someone posted earlier, by specific divisions created by Hitler to deal with those "problems". If you see SS in any German military designation, you can assume they were pretty determined in a cause that went above the "call of duty" that a regular Wermacht, Panzer, or Luftwaffe service member adhered to.

They were soldiers. And they had specific technology and tactics that would be interesting to explore.

That said, I've played plenty of games, in a campaign mode (I know, the audacity) that involved me controlling SS troops. But none of the games that I played were titled Rounding Up Jews or Expanding an Empire to Establish Racial Superiority. They were games like the original Sturmovik series, Close Combat, etc.

The men and women that were involved in the Axis forces during WWII were people too. Some of them did horrible things. Japan, Italy, Germany, all of them have a list of war crimes. But let's not say that the Allies weren't guilty of some regrettable actions. Both in WWII, Korea, Viet Nam...and...well...I always think it's funny how we frown on aggressor nations when America itself is in another country with no justified reason right now.

A lot of people paint WWII as a black and white conflict. Someone else pointed out that war is never that way. It's many shades of grey, and both sides involve human beings.

well no , an amazing amount of people are drop dead ignorant when it comes to history

alot of people actually think that everyone who fought on the german side was a die hard nazi who wanted to drink the blood of the jews.

While a good amount of people during the period were a part of the nazi party , it didnt mean they were fighting for hitler , or his ideals.

At the time in history the german people were recovering from a completely humiliating defeat in ww1 , which as a result of the treaty of versille it completely disarmed germany as a nation militarily.

Hitler was a voice of hope for germany , a beacon of light in a dark tunnel. Much like the american people looked toward obama in the recent election (not saying that obama is a nazi)

People were nazis back then because it was the "thing" to do , It was the most effective way to show your patriotism to germany (not hitler)

Now the SS , thats a different story , those guys were sworn to hitler. those were the sick fucks that you imagine when you hear the word nazi.

But again , not ALL of them were completely brainwashed sicko's , alot of them just wanted to show the most support for germany as possible by signing up for the prestigous honor of being hitlers SS.

Back to the point


There is no reason why games cannot feature a story of the german soldier or pilot . Because a vast majority of them were fighting for their rights as a nation like anyone else

I also think that many german pilots while weary of the war and its costs, particularly late in the day, nevertheless felt a heavy responsibility and duty to defend german cities from the mass bombing attacks carried out by the allies. Most bombs dropped, the vast majority in fact, never hit their intended targets. Many civilians were killed of course and whole cities were leveled. Then of course there was the intentional destruction of civilians and cities through firebombing. I think looking back, as horrific as the toll must have been on the German people, on the Japanese people as well, it was a toll that had to be paid considering their complicity in the rise of the nationalistic militancy in both countries that set the world to a war of unmatched brutality, death, and destruction.

Having said that, I can understand and even empathize with the german fighter pilot and the seemingly hopeless circumstances he found himself in as the end was near.

Yea its a bit same as calling the Kamikazes crazy,
While these young boys lost their whole families on airstrikes.
And with the japanese spirit and such.
They just gave it all to scare away the Americans.
They would die anyway, why not a hero?

Your view of german pilots as horrible Nazis isn't much different than Hitler's ignorant views of Jews.

There are many stories to be told on all sides of WWII and any other past or current conflict. To characterize one side as entirely evil or good is a gross over-simplification of something much more complex.

Nicely put...

This game & other flight sims are not about the holocaust. All but a handfull of Germans had no idea of Hiltler's sick ideals until after the war. They clung to any leader that would take them out of the depression they were left with after WWI. As Anton stated in an earlier post pilots were knights (especially early in the war). In fact if a pilot crippled anothers plane in a battle they would often let them go (even fly next to them & salute).
I used to fly for the german (not Nazi) side in computer flight sims. Without opposing sides a "game" is just a shooting gallery. I have family that fought in WWII and hold no ill toward thier one time enemy only toward war itself. You can not really believe that every german soldier had no concious & was out to exterminate a race (many of whom they were related). When people are drowning they will cling to anything. Just try and go to Germany & wear a swastika, they wont arrest you because of pride lost, they will take you away because of shame. Shame for what thier country is remembered for yet the regular people/soldiers knew nothing about.

hitler was evil but the german people gave him a chance because the economy was so bad i mean before hitler 1 loaf of bread cost a wheelbarrow of money so every1 saw him as a way out not because every1 was sick and wanted to kill jews
(btw i dont support hitler i support a democracy and people's wellbeing)

throughout history, every nation has committed crimes against humanity - no exceptions. its not just nazi germany that is guilty.

think of north and south america before the europeans arrived, but thats ok becuase the native people wrent god fearing christians, to the extent that it was ok to be a native just as long as you stayed put on your little "reserve" as a museum exhibit for all the "developed" people to point and stare at.

slavery was rife under the British Empire - and how did Britain acquire their empire? it wasnt by asking for it nicely - and anyone who opposed was villified by historians in the name of patriotism. how is that any different from nazi germany? or stalinist russia?

noone on this forum is condoning or supporting the atrocities of the second world war, but just dont think it was only the axis forces that were reponsible for "evil" deeds.

anyway i feel this topic has gone way to deep for a forum about a flight sim. as an aircraft enthusiast, its a shame not more examples of axis machinery survive, particularly airworthy ones. i would love to see fw-190's and bf110's flying alongside mustangs, spitfires etc they were machines built for a purpose, regardless of political alignment.

yeh the english comited tons of war crimes (im english :D ) and yes id love to see japanese aircraft on desplay in museums (there is a museum somewhere in the us that shows the last serviving J7W Shinden prototype which is 1 of my favourite aircraft) and german aircraft
btw i have a german friend on psn and he isnt some nazi suporter or anything no sane person is.

No u are big wrong,
US made the most evils than Russians,
Look, US bombers bombed and killed more civillians that Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined in German cities,
They are just civillians, and US now justifies thier bloody murder or holocaust.

I think there's something inherently quite respectful about a game like this which places some emphasis on realism. Sturmovik should cause no offence to any sane person were it to allow players to fight on either side.

actually those bombings were completely justified

If we had not bombed japan into submission millions of japanese people would have died

over a million US dead was a estimate

You see the japanese at the time believed that surrender would bring shame upon themselves and their families. They were being trained to defend every inch of japanese soil with at most sharp bamboo pikes and rocks. Children had drills at school to kill american soldiers. And women were told that GI's would rape and murder them on sight.

While we did kill alot of people in the bombings, it averted what could have possibly been the most horrific battle in human history and we saved more lives then we took.

just look at okinawa for example

I don't think historians are quite so unanimous about that. Many argue that Japan was already at the point of surrender and in any case did the US really have to choose such highly populated civilian areas to demonstrate the overwhelming might of their new weapon?

no , we had to bomb them twice with nuclear weapons before they surrendered

And we bombed military targets , it just so happened that they were in cities

Yup unfortunately the american guy is wright... They attacked military places! (Im british)

I'm British too although I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. All I'm saying is that it remains a very controversial subject and the truth of what would have really happened had the US either not dropped any atomic bombs or had only dropped the first instead of following it up three days later is pretty much unknowable.

ok here is my oppinion
if the us had not done it the casualties would be very high and with the stuff the japanese held back for the fight ( prototypes and stuff ) they could of pushed the americans back

So Stalin killing 20 million or so of his own civilian citizens doesn't count as a war crime? It was a massacre of at least 3 times the scale of what happened to the Jews in Europe under the Nazi's. Not to mention killing hundreds of thousands of German and Polish POWs.

The Russians treatment of captured personnel and civilians was far worse than anything the Germans did.

I agree that the US did commit war crimes by deliberate bombing German civilians, as did my own nation, the British. However the scale of what the these nations did is dwarfed by what Stalin did, so the point stands.
Nagasaki and Hiroshima were selected as possible targets for atomic bombs because they did not contain any targets of military significance and could thus safely be left intact to test the full power of the atomic bomb. At least a third of the deaths were Korean and Chinese forced labourers, and military personnel made up substantially less than 1 per of the victims.

you are confused

they were selected ahead of the bombings to be untouched by other air raids so that the effects could be observed.

And they were indeed military targets , especially nagasaki which was a huge industrial port city that created many munitions and ordanance for the japanese war machine. mitsubishi steel works being one of them

as for the POW casualties , that is irrellevent , the japanese had POWs working all over japan as slave labor. It really makes no difference.

Its impossible to know the outcome had the A bombs not been dropped but I think its safe to assume that Japan and the Japaneses people would have fared far worse had the war not ended when it did. Out of curiosity, I think I already know the answer to this..a big fat no. In the history of PC flight simulators has there ever been a game that simulated the Enola Gay's run over Hiroshima? Im asking in all seriousness. Not much action went on apart from the dropping of the bomb itself so something like that wouldnt have made for a great game mode I guess. I referenced a few posts back perhapt the most disgustingly innapropriate pc game that I can think of as far as historicaly based games go...JFK Reloaded. And I do from time to time go back to play becuase it is a fun challenge and the physics make for some hilarious motorcade carnage..

I think the only kind of person I would ever be ashamed to know that I enjoy a game like IL-2 would be an actual ww2 combat pilot veteran...there are not too many of those guys left but I wonder what they make of something like IL-2..would b interesting to know

i have done it in IL2 with the AAA mod

Im sure similar things will be possible in future IL2 pc games

I've met three blokes in my time who flew during the war. Some via radio controlled flying at events and one bloke who used to be a director of a firm I used to work for. They all seemed pleased that someone was interested in what they did and went through and in hearing their stories (my former boss was a Mosquito pilot and had some incredible and some quite awful stories). Also despite everything they still had the interest in flying that got them into it in the first place so I imagine that they would probably be quite fascinated by it all.

Axis campaigns are a staple for WW2 flight sims so the lack of one is a pretty huge loss. I would strongly suggest it be the first DLC addition.

Playing as a pilot in the Luftwaffe and playing as a senior gas chamber operator ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT IDEAS!

I think it has been well said; playing as the axis is not glorifying their actions, simply acknowledging them.

Whether you like it or not, history is history. Denying it happened doesn't change that fact.

Now playing a game as an Imperial Japanese officer in a campaign to rape Nanking, and slaughter 30 million Chinese? No, that's not something I want to relive in the pixel world. Flying as or along side Saburo Sakai in air combat? HELL YEAH.

Not till this Post thread have I realized the evils of Playing "Secret Weapons of the luftwaffe" by Lucas Arts all those years ago .................

Its gaming nature to want to try and see what "you" could do different, The Confederates at Gettyburg, Japanese Navy at Guadalcanal, Bismarck ripping apart convoys, to put a game up as some kind of moral Barometer of what you should or shouldnt enjoy in a game is unfair at the least , at most just plain wrong

Besides, both the Russians and the Japanese committed far worse war crimes than the Germans. By extension of the argument that you shouldn't play as the Germans because of what the Nazi's did, you shouldn't be playing as either of these nations. Never stopped me yet, because there were brave and honourable men in the air services of all three nations.

Please, stop discussing war crimes.
Neither of you (nor me) are historical experts, to make judgement on who is more guilty.
And it is ridiculous.
Axis campaign won't be in this game.
Nazis commited a lot of war crime, but far better excuse is that they actually lost the war.
How is it supposed to end this 'Axis Campaign'?
I have nothing against fighting for Axis in MP (that's why MP has Axis), but Campaign seems weird.
Nazi pilots were fighting for evil side. For guys who were murdering millions of people, because they were of another race or nationality. Yeah, it doesn't matter cause they were soldiers and had to obey orders. But it matters - because they vote for their leader earlier. And their leader makes all these people fight - and die - in a world war, which they lost in the end. And it is their fault as well - that's the dark side of democracy. Everyone is guilty for the crimes of the government which was publicly elected.
Personally, I like the fact that Nazis lost this war. The idea that people have to die, with a horrible death, just because they are of the another race - seems horrible to me.
But to fight in Campaign for the loosing side?... What for? Will it prove that they were fighting for anything that worth fighting? Why anybody want to take a part in a Campaign for Nazis - and lost it, as Nazis did?

BTW, Allies and Axis both killed a lot of common people during military operations - it is war. But in USSR German prisoners of war have better food ration that Soviet soldiers on the frontlines. And USSR prisoners were starving and dying in German concentration camps.
The attitude towards prisoners shows a lot. And Germany attacked first, unexpectedly, without declaration of war - France, Britain, USSR. They (the govenrment) were mercyless agressor - and still they were treated as a war prisoners, not like they were of a lesser kind. I am proud that my grandparents fought and won that war.
And so stop comparing Russian (USSR) with Nazis or Japanese. That's silly and unfair.

But to fight in Campaign for the loosing side?... What for? Will it prove that they were fighting for anything that worth fighting? Why anybody want to take a part in a Campaign for Nazis - and lost it, as Nazis did?


Its gaming nature to want to try and see what "you" could do different, The Confederates at Gettyburg, Japanese Navy at Guadalcanal, Bismarck ripping apart convoys, to put a game up as some kind of moral Barometer of what you should or shouldnt enjoy in a game is unfair at the least , at most just plain wrong ........... ITS A GAME NOT A POLITICAL/MORAL STATEMENT

Anton, there is another thread on the forum talking about family members who fought in the war. Have you posted there? I'd love to hear what your grandparents did.

;)

Stalin ruthlessly killed those who were not ethnic Russians. More than 100,000 ethnically Polish civilians were murdered prior to WWII, as too were many Germans who had emigrated to Russia after WWI. People of other nationalities such as Americans who had fled the Great Depression were also persecuted. In my mind there is not much difference between persecuting people because they belong to one specific ethnic group and persecuting people because they have a different ethnic origin to your own.

Russian troops regularly executed captured enemies, including many German pilots, and killed 25,000 Polish officers on Stalin's orders. Around 12-15%(580,000 out of around 4 million) of all prisoners of war taken by the Soviets died in the Gulags (penal labour camps).

Advancing Russian troops looted and pillaged the land of the Axis nations they took, and raped tens if not hundreds of thousands of women.

I am not saying what the Russian did during WWII was unprovoked, or necessarily much worse than what the Germans did, but no one had clean hands during WWII and the Germans tend to get isolated as if what they did was greatly worse than everyone else's behaviour.

Moral/Political features rarely factor into a flight simulator (unless they're explicitly written in), it's is all about the planes!
I never found a WW2 sim that had a problem with a German campaign, all of mine have one or several, some exclusivly have a German campaign.
The brief is that people want to use the German aircraft simply because they like them and they want to use them in missions more complex than quick battles or online.

Simply, that's a lie. Prove it or stop talk about it.
No more, than 21 000 of Poland soldiers were executed. Even less according to official information.
They were soldiers, not citizens. And, although it is still awful and ugly, they were not murdered in gasenwagens, or starved to death.
But - 1. they were soldiers 2. your numbers are something imaginery.
Just to remind, at least 50 000 russian war prisoners were killed by Poland soldiers earlier.
I don't like to dig into these things - war as ugly. But comparing Nazis death camps and actions of agressor with USSR defending their right to live - is also ugly.

Yeah. I appreciate your opinion, but I don't share it. Luckily, it is us who make the game.
That's why Axis planes are available in online only. Which is good enough, as for me.

Just noticed.
Several Soviet soldiers were EXECUTED for raping women. It was strictly prohibited. There was an official order about it.
There is no any official statistics on raping even hundreds women, not tens of thousand.
It can't be Stalin's crime at all, becuase he order not to do anything like that, and several soldiers were executed becuase of this crime.
What you do, is simply repeating thiose bullshit that can be found in the Internet, without any proofs or reliable links. It is lie, bullshit and it is annoying.

If I'll notice it again - I'll ask moderator to ban you.

not to butt in anton , but it is factual history.
http://books.google.com/books?id=00f...age&q=&f=false

Right, i think Anton has better things to do than whine about you lot! I suggests that this thread is left alone.

I second this. My father was born in 1926 and he lived in Austria under Russian occupation. He told me exactly the same. The Russian army was very strict and raping was punished by death.

Stalin has done terrible things, Hitler has done terrible things and also some contemporary leaders have done terrible things. You cannot compare them to each other and you should not do it. There is no international competition for the worst war crime and no entry in the Guiness book of records.

We are living now and we have to make sure that such things will not be repeated as long as we give our votes. Looking at what is happening right now during this economic crisis, however, I am not sure we really learned a lot from these bad times. All across Europe there are right wing parties that show a lot of potential for future crimes against humanity if they just get enough power...

Please guys, we really don't need to point fingers at other countries and bring up grotesk events(some that may have not even happened or are unsupported by evidence) just to prove that an Axis campaign is okay.

What??? That is just a flatout dumb statement(It was Russian propraganda and nothing more). Napoleon was one of the most civilized, and humane conquers ever with the exception of Cyrus the Great no other conquer was more civilized, and humane, and cared more about the rights, and liberty of man.

Napoleon along with Cyrus the Great is one of the very, very, very few conquers that can genuinely be considered a good person.

Napoleon and Cyrus both protected, and helped the Jews even though it was an extremely unpopular thing to do. Both of these conquers tryed to do what was right, and just, and they were both very tolerant of other races, and religions

No offense to any of the russian guys on this board.

But just because there was law against raping civilians in the red army , does not mean it didnt happen on a massive scale.

As an american i know we have a dark history too , most notoriously fire bombing at the end of world war 2 , internment camps for japanese americans , and the rape and murder that occured during vietnam.

Just because a nation is against such actions does not mean they dont happen.

I mean this stuff is still happening in iraq , its part of war.

to deny it is silly

im not pointing fingers , out of all the nations fighting in world war 2 , the russians amount of bravery and sacrifice IMO eclipses most other countries of the time.

1) I'm Austrian.
2) No denial, but Russian soldiers were shot for raping women. This is nothing that I took from the internet, but something that I was told by people who lived in that time.
3) Soldiers sometimes do terrible things. They become traumatized to a point where they are not humans anymore. The concept of mercy and justice gets lost to many in the process of a conflict like WWII. But the question is always what was the official order and what was done without such an order.

it really doesnt matter if it was an order or not though

Time to lighten the mood before this gets locked down (probably too late):

And to get back on track, I can't wait to fly one of these badboys in MP:

Sorry, I was only quoting you as an expample. I wasn't directing this towards guiltyspark.

Not saying everyone was nessessarilly pointing fingers, but you know what I mean, but whatever. All in the past now and should stay there.

Yeah, I know this book.
It is not historical book at all.
You know what historical facts means? There should be documents of somekind. Not something written by someone, but an official documents, statistics gathered, etc
There IS statistics about war crimes during world war.

And this is artistic book. Probably the author has fantasies about being raped, or whatever.
It is silly to compare historical facts with artistic book.

There is no idea in such comparsion. If you don't know any facts, than nothing to discuss.

Yes Anton, once again, your spot on! That book is mearly speculation

There is difference, between a crime commited by a person, and a crime commited by a government.
One - happen all the time, nowdays.
A lot of people being killed all the time, and most of them - not in a war (Iraq, Afganistan, or whatever). Most of them are being killed with a knife at home, are being robbered, or whatever.
Some of crimes are committed by soldiers.
But if they are being punished for that (and Soviet soldiers were EXECUTED for that. It is far more than what is done to most of the rapists nowdays), than it is not official, and it is not governmental war crome.
Axis, on the other hand, officially have given orders to kill (and not just execute. They made experiments on them, they haven't feed them, they use gas, etc) a lot of people (millions), just because they were of the other race.

That's uncomparable to personal violation of order or casualties. That's inexcusable.

And, btw, there was Nurnberg's trial about that, so there is nothing to discuss.
All Stalin's crimes (and yeah, there were Stalin's orders to kill citizens) were against Soviet people, not against German - and Germany was aggressor, so that could be an excuse.

there are no documents of allied war crimes.

we won the war.

any documents that did exist were most likely destroyed by the occupiers

Do you think that japan would have tried its own people if they had won the war?

no

There are also no German documents of death/concentration camps either. Some Germans to this day refuse to believe the Holocaust was real.

actually there are thousands

They are.
There were even trials.
You simply do not know what are you talking about.
And comparing Nazis crimes to millions of jews, Russians, gipsys with a personal crimes of soldiers - is ridiculous. And annoying.
And, if you don't know, it is even illegal in a lot of countries - for a reason.

And I think, that if Axis would won the war - there wouldn't be 'trials'. A lot of people would be killed just on orders.

Once again - you don't know.
Japanese hadn't tried their war criminals AT ALL.
They lost the war, but scientists who personally and voluntery run experiments on a living people, and kill them are still getting pension.
As well as some of militaries who gave orders of killing Chinise citizens (not militaries), after they've finished their work, just to save some food.

There are A LOT of documents.
Photos.
Movies.
Official orders.
You can visit Buhenvald yourself.

Well, maybe not German ones. But someone would have needed a 100 years photoshopping all the pictures from Auschwitz, Mauthausen and all the other places. Furthermore it would discredit all the reports from inmates of those concentration camps who made it out alive - in most cases as the only remaining out of their families.

And the people who deny their existence shall tell me where all the jews and other undesired ethnic groups went that disappeared. Are they sitting on Mars or in Atlantis now..?

People can deny the moon landing if they feel like it, but I have serious doubts about their mental state when they start telling me that there is no evidence that concentration camps were real.

However, I also recognize that this is not your personal opinion, so this above outrage is not directed at you.;) The ones at whom it is directed will know.

In reply to Anton Yudintsev,
(1)Kenneth Christie(2002)85,000 ethnic Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians deported between 1940-41, of which 55,000 killed or died.
(2)CIA report on "Katryn Controversy". On 5th March 1940, Stalin signed their death warrant--an NKVD order condemning 21,857 to "the supreme penalty: shooting".
(3)Richard Overy: Russia's War(1997) regarding POWs during WWII "official figures show ca. 580,000 deaths"
(4) I withdraw this statement, I cannot find references of sufficient quality to back this up.

I will be adding more references, but finding the figures takes time and I want to save what I have written down in case something happens to my computer.

And it is understandable.
It is hard to believe, that someone could actually done this.

There was reason, why Nazis told everyone that jews, blacks, gipsys, etc - were of the lesser race. They had to convinve them, that they are not humans - otherwise it would be hard for soldiers to follow these orders.

I may only be 15 but ive been to Auschwitz. I strongly recommend going! Its true the stories of no animals living there! there wasnt even a peep from a bird!
Chris

I misworded that.:oops: woops!

I ment like actual German records of killing people(or something like that) which were destroyed before Germans fled the camps when Allied troops got close and this keeps some Germans from believing it happened.

I know there are documents(woopsie me), movies, even the death camps that are still there!:rolleyes:

I can recall some of my history professors telling me this, but I can't remember specifically what it was.:???:

My bad :oops:

Maybe it was the fact it was so unbelievable that someone would do something so horrible and sick.

Why bother?


There is no Nazi campaign in this game, and there never will be. Regardless of whatever articles, facts, opinions, whatever... That has been answered and this ridiculous thread should be locked and left to die.

Trying to soften the evil of what the Nazis did by showing the evils of others is just plain stupid. What is your goal? Pointing your finger and the developer of this game saying your people were more evil than the Nazis so you should include a Nazi campaign?

Holy WTF? Get over it.

the original poster meant a GERMAN campaign , not a nazi one

Oh, yeah.
Especially this CIA is imperssive.
Once again - stop talking about things you don't understand - or provide links to DOCUMENTS. They are open now, so everyone can take a look.

Only last one is about PoW, right?
Once again, living in USSR during WW2 was very hard. Soviet people were starving and died. A lot of them. Because there was no food. Living as PoW was not easy - but it was not as hard as living in a, let's say, Leningrad.
How do you expect all of them could survive? Some of them were wounded. There were diseases. They were living in a bad conditions - as well as all soldiers and a lot of citizens.

But they were fed more than, some of Soldiers soldiers on a Frontlines!
And some of German soldiers WERE executed. After trial, and IF they guilty in killing citizens - not just because they were Germans.

I am writing a letter to moderator.
Bye.

Well, it's hard to tell the difference 1938-1945...

I would like to see where this figure of 50,000 Russian POWs executed by the Polish comes from. Polish troops were given orders not to engage Soviet troops, and fighting was limited. As far as I know, the Polish did not capture any significant numbers of Russian troops, if any at all.

dumbest thing i have ever heard

It was earlier, during Russian-Poland war.

This seems somewhat unfair. You asked me to find evidence, for the figures I quoted and I have attempted to do so. My figures come from books I own, not the internet, and I cannot provide links to these. The CIA report can be accessed by searching "the Katryn controversy", in www.cia.gov.

Yeah?
Please, read the tread's NAME.

Also...

Guiltyspark, the quote you are replying to has nothing to do with the original poster, and you can substitute the word Nazi in my post with the word German, and it doesn't change it one bit.

The men who fought in that war may not have been Nazis. The men who ordered this war were for sure.

And thanks for your civilized style of conversation. Thanks god I know better than to lower to this level.

This has nothing to do with getting a German campaign added to Birds of Prey. The discussion may have started out that way but this is a different subject altogether.

Yeah, it is.
Denying Nazi's crimes, and denying Holoucast is something that violates the law.
Providing the links to artistic books, 'prooving' that USSR had commited war crimes during WW2 - is something that violates common sense, and should be pubished as well.
The world is unfair, and I think, that even first violation is enough to make you banned.
And I actually warned you.

But, I am not moderator. Probably, he won't do anything.

You have definitely misunderstood what I intended to say. Perhaps I did not express my opinions fully enough. I do not deny the Holocaust happened, indeed I fully believe that more than 6 million Jews and other minority members died in concentration camps under Hitler. I do not deny the Nazi's commited many war crimes. I was simply asking for some balance, because all too often the eyes of the world are concentrated on Germanys war crimes alone, and ignore those commited by others.

I did not provide the link to said artistic book, you are confusing my posts with those of guiltyspark.

I withdrew the allegation that Russian troops committed widescale rape in countries they occupied, because the more I search the more I am convinced such instances were isolated, and condemmed by Russian authority. If you would like, I will edit that out of the original post.

Sorry, but your links are not much better.
Some of them are propaganda at least.
Some are not related to _war_ crimes at all.

It will be just fine, if you'll stop discuss war crimes from now on :)
Your last post is much better than those one in the beginning.
Let's stop here.

holocaust denial is thankfully not a violation of any US law...I dont think such lunacy should be made illegal and in this country thankfully we do have protections for even the most politically abhorant speech,,,which is a good thing because it makes it easier to tell who the morons are when they are denying the most obvious of historical facts.

All I want is to be able to sim an ME-163B through a formation of B-17's...that would be so cool..and its just a game...lol