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-   -   Leading Edge Slats on the Me-109 (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=35549)

Redroach 10-31-2012 08:14 PM

Leading Edge Slats on the Me-109
 
Hmm, well, I'm really uncertain about the Slats on the various Bf-109 models.
I've never seen them moving, optically, so the tendency might be that they still don't work, do they?
I'm not especially familiar with the Me-109 precisely because of that reason, and as long as they won't work, I'm not getting into an 109 cockpit in earnest.
Soo... do they actually work now?

notafinger! 10-31-2012 09:08 PM

Yes, as your speed drops below 300 kmh or so they will pop out. Unfortunately, there is no noise as many accounts say they came out with quite a loud bang that would startle a novice pilot.

Redroach 10-31-2012 09:16 PM

Ah okay, thank you!

lonewulf 11-01-2012 01:24 AM

The slats were spring loaded and extended or retracted depending on the amount of air pressure being exerted on the leading edge. If you suddenly stalled one wing the slat on that wing might extend suddenly but typically they would extend gradually as airspeed dropped below 200k.

Because the slats could extend asymmetrically, this could result in an uneven airflow over the wings.

Nephris 11-01-2012 03:45 AM

Nevertheless I dont have the impression the slats work liable as it did in Il2 1946. Means I cant observe the slats extracting each time i am below 240kmh or even 210kmh.
Even if the slats extract, I cant notice the effect, imho the feature isnt implemented to its final state.

41Sqn_Banks 11-01-2012 08:05 AM

IMHO the easiest way to test the FM effect of leading edge slats is to compare the Tiger with locked and unlocked slats.

Nephris 11-01-2012 11:52 AM

Didnt notice the Tiger got some :confused:

Kurfürst 11-01-2012 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewulf (Post 475881)
The slats were spring loaded and extended or retracted depending on the amount of air pressure being exerted on the leading edge. If you suddenly stalled one wing the slat on that wing might extend suddenly but typically they would extend gradually as airspeed dropped below 200k.

Because the slats could extend asymmetrically, this could result in an uneven airflow over the wings.

Hi,

There is no spring in the Me 109 slats, they are sucked out by air pressure. AFAIK they are more actuated by the angle of attack of the wing and designed that if it reaches crticial angle, they would deploy. That's why they are working independent, i.e. if they deploy assimetrically, it means that one of the wings have reached a critical angle of attack, the other did not. The uneven airflow is a cause and not an effect of their deployment (if they would not deploy on that wing, the wing would detach the airflow stall).

The very reason of their employment is to make sure that once the wing is near stalling, the slats, by their deployment would keep the outer portion of the wing from stalling, so that ailerons would be still effective.

Flanker35M 11-01-2012 12:42 PM

S!

As Kurfürst said, the slats on Bf109 have no springs. They are on rails sliding forth and back depending on AoA. Moved them on the Finnish Bf109G-6 in Tikkakoski.

Redroach 11-01-2012 02:07 PM

Mh there still seem to be doubts... optically, some confirm that they work, but functionally?
My personal, albeit not extensive, experience, is that the Me-109s are VERY flimsy at slow speeds, when compared to its IL-2 1946 incarnations. Every remotely hard aileron/rudder input could lead into a spin imho - that's why I was asking.

bongodriver 11-01-2012 02:19 PM

slats don't prevent spins

lonewulf 11-01-2012 03:02 PM

I clipped the following info from the wikipedia on the subject of leading edge slats to back up my comments:

Leading Edge Slats
"Types include:
Automatic - the slat lies flush with the wing leading edge until reduced aerodynamic forces allow it to extend by way of springs when needed.
Fixed - the slat is permanently extended. This is sometimes used on specialist low-speed aircraft (these are referred to as slots) or when simplicity takes precedence over speed.
Powered - the slat extension can be controlled by the pilot. This is commonly used on airliners."

"During World War II German aircraft commonly fitted a more advanced version that pushed back flush against the wing by air pressure to reduce drag, popping out when the airflow decreased during slower flight. Notable slats of that time belonged to the German Fieseler Fi 156 Storch. These were similar in design to retractable slats, but were fixed non-retractable slots. The slotted wing allowed this aircraft to take off into a light wind in less than 45 m (150 ft), and land in 18 m (60 ft). Aircraft designed by the Messerschmitt company employed leading-edge slats as a general rule."

If someone has some conflicting information to backup their views that the 109s LES weren't spring actuated, I'd be interested to see it.

Al Schlageter 11-01-2012 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewulf (Post 476107)
If someone has some conflicting information to backup their views that the 109s LES weren't spring actuated, I'd be interested to see it.

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/techre...lats/slats.htm

swiss 11-01-2012 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redroach (Post 475749)
Hmm, well, I'm really uncertain about the Slats on the various Bf-109 models.
I've never seen them moving, optically, so the tendency might be that they still don't work, do they?

The effect has to be in the code, it doesn't matter whether they move or not.
It's not like Clod modeled the airflow the wing, there's a reason we don't have vortexes....

Random_Nonsense 11-01-2012 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewulf (Post 476107)

If someone has some conflicting information to backup their views that the 109s LES weren't spring actuated, I'd be interested to see it.

I've pushed the slats in and out on a Buchon . No springs on them and they are pretty similar to a 109 ;)

lonewulf 11-01-2012 10:46 PM

Well, on the basis of the info supplied by Schlageter and Random Nonsense it appears that I was wrong about the slats. I withdraw and apologize.

Redroach 11-02-2012 03:42 AM

Can one, for once, have a clear answer on the original subject, please? It seems to be a tough task...

Random_Nonsense 11-02-2012 10:58 AM

Well they visually move.

No idea how to test if they have an effect on the flight model though. Anyone a good enough shot to only shoot the slats off a 109?

macro 11-02-2012 12:40 PM

Atag modelled control surface to fall off on limited plane types maybe they could do this with the slats?

5./JG27.Farber 11-02-2012 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewulf (Post 476107)
I clipped the following info from the wikipedia

Wikipedia is by far the worst source for any information. You might as well ask a stranger in the street. ;) You can actually find contradictions on the same page on most things on wiki if you look hard enough.... Sometimes not even that hard.

Like you, I also found this out the hard way. :-P

Al Schlageter 11-02-2012 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lonewulf (Post 476324)
Well, on the basis of the info supplied by Schlageter and Random Nonsense it appears that I was wrong about the slats. I withdraw and apologize.

You might want to ponder why in some photos the slats are out, in other photos the slats are in and in other photos one side is in and the other side is out.

zipper 11-04-2012 09:31 AM

Yepper, on the ground they will either stay out or stay retracted. I've played around with the real thing, too, and they are springless Handley Page slats all the way. (The very first versions of HP slats did use small springs.)

JtD 11-04-2012 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber (Post 476566)
Wikipedia is by far the worst source for any information.

That's just not true, on average it's a great free source of accurate information. It is, as with any other source, still advisable to double check against another source.

WRT the slats, the flight model and the slat animation are not necessarily linked. You can have the full benefit of the slats in terms of stall speed and handling, without ever seeing them move. Other way round is also possible. You can most easily check if they are in the FM by determining the maximum power off lift coefficient.

Redroach 11-04-2012 09:39 PM

Would you please get out of this thread with that silly nitpick dispute?

To re-formulate the original question: Do the Leading Edge Slats work properly in CoD or not?

IIIJG52_Otto_+ 11-12-2012 03:29 AM

I think the aerodynamic effect of Bf-109´s slats, is bad modeled in CloD.

I was watching the Bf-109 flying in Berlin last September, and he did very fast maneuvers without going into stall, or spins.
It´s a very beautifull airplane :cool:

You can see the video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTxGDI2-wDs

bongodriver 11-12-2012 08:45 AM

Slats do not prevent stalls or spins they simply delay a stall and allow a higher angle of attack, just because an aircraft has slats it does not mean you can just pull it around without penalty.

The 109 in the video didn't stall or spin because the pilot didn't take it to the limits.

Redroach 11-12-2012 09:33 AM

yes, bongodriver, good news, we're all positive now about that fact, and how slats work (and were for some time, I think.).

Back to my original question: I tested a little bit in an E-4B and, besides seeing the slats actually moving for the first time, I noticed (subjectively, of course) a somewhat improved handling at slow speeds. So, to answer my own question: Yes, perhaps the LES are probably working now. If they are properly tuned to reflect RL-Performance, I do not know, however.

bongodriver 11-12-2012 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redroach (Post 480235)
yes, bongodriver, good news, we're all positive now about that fact, and how slats work (and were for some time, I think.).

Back to my original question: I tested a little bit in an E-4B and, besides seeing the slats actually moving for the first time, I noticed (subjectively, of course) a somewhat improved handling at slow speeds. So, to answer my own question: Yes, perhaps the LES are probably working now. If they are properly tuned to reflect RL-Performance, I do not know, however.

You don't need to take my post personally, I'm sure you can see I'm explaining it to some who don't understand these things, as to your original question it has already been shown that in order to find out if slats are working you need to compare it against performance without operative slats.....how to do it is the tricky part.

IIIJG52_Otto_+ 11-12-2012 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bongodriver (Post 480215)
Slats do not prevent stalls or spins they simply delay a stall and allow a higher angle of attack, just because an aircraft has slats it does not mean you can just pull it around without penalty.

The 109 in the video didn't stall or spin because the pilot didn't take it to the limits.

I agree with you on that first .. but I'm sure that with a Bf-109E in the CloD, you can not do some maneuvers as in reality, (such as, closed scissors, or Immelmann turn) at speeds flight from reality, because the aircraft enters itself in a spin unreal and unrecoverable.
We need to improve the Bf-109 FM more accurately.

bongodriver 11-12-2012 09:41 PM

the FM's of all the aircraft need improving.

Kurfürst 11-13-2012 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IIIJG52_Otto_+ (Post 480505)
I agree with you on that first .. but I'm sure that with a Bf-109E in the CloD, you can not do some maneuvers as in reality, (such as, closed scissors, or Immelmann turn) at speeds flight from reality, because the aircraft enters itself in a spin unreal and unrecoverable.
We need to improve the Bf-109 FM more accurately.

I agree. The hideous stalling characteristics of the 109 are the most important aspect of the 109-FM that needs improved upon. The real 109 was an almost foolproof plane in the air with gentle stall characteristics (and was so in Il-2FB), compared to the thing we have in the sim doing wild things for seemingly no reason.

Redroach 11-15-2012 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 480731)
The hideous stalling characteristics of the 109 are the most important aspect of the 109-FM that needs improved upon. The real 109 was an almost foolproof plane in the air with gentle stall characteristics (and was so in Il-2FB), compared to the thing we have in the sim doing wild things for seemingly no reason.

And this, I think, after recently testing in an E-4, has improved somewhat, with the slats actually working now. But, still, this is a highly subjective point of view and probably still doesn't compare favourably to RL.

Crumpp 12-01-2012 09:10 PM

Quote:

slats don't prevent spins
No, they only make it exponentially harder to enter a spin

Crumpp 12-01-2012 11:05 PM

Quote:

The hideous stalling characteristics of the 109 are the most important aspect of the 109-FM that needs improved upon.
After that, the stability and control. The Bf-109 was one of the best shooting platforms of the war.

*Buzzsaw* 12-02-2012 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 480731)
I agree. The hideous stalling characteristics of the 109 are the most important aspect of the 109-FM that needs improved upon. The real 109 was an almost foolproof plane in the air with gentle stall characteristics (and was so in Il-2FB), compared to the thing we have in the sim doing wild things for seemingly no reason.

There are a lot of myths about slats, and a lot of misunderstandings.

The 109's slats do not prevent stalls or automatically give the 109 a stall speed lower than other aircraft. The 109E stalled at speeds higher than the Spitfire I or Hurricane I. A stall is a stall, a loss of effective control of the aircraft by the pilot and a subsequent loss of height.

What the slats do is resist, not prevent the typical right or left wing drop and potential entry into a spin at the stall you see with other non-slat equipped wings, the typical level flight, power off 109 stall is a simple loss of control and gentle nose drop which allows for a quick recovery.

But the pilot still loses control. The aircraft stalls.

And, in accelerated power on stalls under G, the 109 could drop a wing, just like any other aircraft. The chances of this was less, but the slats did not exclude this possibility.

Kurfürst 12-02-2012 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 485006)
And, in accelerated power on stalls under G, the 109 could drop a wing, just like any other aircraft. The chances of this was less, but the slats did not exclude this possibility.

I agree, of course it should stall and yes, the stall speed was a bit higher. The slats practically do the same thing as washout would do on a slat-less aircraft, making the outer wing section stall later (at higher AoA) than the inner wing, thus maintaining aileron control longer.

The problem is how how this stall happens - from everything what I have read I'd expect the 109 to be pushed fairly far in a turn (partly because of the slats, party because of the elevator's characteristics), the ailerons would snatch a bit when the slats are opening (at least on the 109E), and when it would stall, gently start to sink, none of the violent flick overs, flat spins and other rubbish we have the sim.

"When doing tight turns with the Me.109 leading at speeds between 90 m.p.h. and 220 m.p.h. the Spitfires and Hurricanes had little difficult in keeping on the tail of the Me. 109. During these turns the amount of normal g recorded on the Me. 109 was between 2½ and 4 g.[b] The aircraft stalled if the turn was tightened to give more than 4 g at speeds below about 200 m.p.h. The slots opened at about ½ g before the stall, and whilst opening caused the ailerons to snatch ; this upset the pilot's sighting immediately and caused him to lose ground. When the slots were fully open the aircraft could be turned quite steadily until very near the stall. If the stick was then pulled back a little more the aircraft suddenly shuddered, and either tended to come out of the turn or dropped its wing further, oscillating meanwhile in pitch and roll and rapidly losing height ; the aircraft immediately unstalled if the stick was eased forward. Even in a very tight turn the stall was quite gentle, with no tendency for the aircraft to suddenly flick over on to its back and spin. The Spitfires and Hurricanes could follow the Me.109 round during the stalled turns without themselves showing any signs of stalling."

Robo. 12-02-2012 10:19 AM

Kurfurst I suggest you talk to the 109 pilots who are in perfect control of their aircraft and never stall it even in very aggressive maneuveurs (that someone here claimed to be impossible). It is in a good match with real life records - 109 expert can really really push harder and even outturn not so capable RAF pilot.

I also fly the 109 very often and I don't have this problem (unless I make a pilot mistake like too much foot or ). The aircraft is controllable even in very aggressive maneuveurs and last second corrections like full rudder deflection shots. You will get into high speed stall by doing that incorrectly but that's not aircrafts fault. I wonder if FF helps, I am using MSFF2 joystick and I can really 'feel' the aircraft.

Hurricane's stall behaviour is much worse than 109s btw, with droping the wing if you're not careful.

Varrattu 12-02-2012 10:47 AM

Just out of curiosity ... ...

Has anyone of you experience flying a real BF109E?

Regards

bongodriver 12-02-2012 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurfürst (Post 485029)
Care to expand on that?

Not really, it's pretty self explanatory.

Crumpp 12-02-2012 03:06 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Even in a very tight turn the stall was quite gentle, with no tendency for the aircraft to suddenly flick over on to its back and spin.
Right.

Obviously folks do not understand how the LE devices work. Many people would benefit from reading chapter 19 of a book called "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

It would eliminate all the stupid arguments on these boards.

http://www.amazon.com/Stick-Rudder-E.../dp/0070362408

Handley Page automatic slats equipped aircraft have unique and non-traditional stall characteristics as a result.

The stall was quite gentle because of the LE Slats. The effect of the slats is to increase the angle of attack the stall occurs at by energizing the boundary layer behind the slat.

The slats on the outboard and the inboard wing is not slotted. This means the inboard portion will ALWAYS stall at a lower Angle of Attack. With the inboard wing stalled, it no longer produces the lift required to raise the nose and increase the outboard portion of the wing that is slotted to the stall Angle of Attack.

It acts like training wheels, automatically countering an asymmetrical stall so that depending on the CG location, no amount of rudder input at the stall point will cause a spin.

Today, slats for spin proofing have fallen out of favor and given way to cuffed wing designs. The aerodynamic effect is the same but the cuffs offer the advantage of a constant drag picture without the complexity of the automatic slat. Drag forces increase with the slat deployment as lift and drag are connected linked by a fixed relationship.

http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/5...resistance.jpg

http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/4...esistance2.jpg

bongodriver 12-02-2012 04:57 PM

Quote:

Even in a very tight turn the stall was quite gentle, with no tendency for the aircraft to suddenly flick over on to its back and spin
Right.....nothing remarkeable

Quote:

The Spitfires and Hurricanes could follow the Me.109 round during the stalled turns without themselves showing any signs of stalling
What?!!!! but these aircraft don't have magic slats

Anyway what some people don't appear to grasp is the fact that the effect slats have is not 'infinite', they can only give a fixed amount of increased alpha before stall and what do you think happens after that?
if your elevators remain effective then you have the ability to go beyond maximum AoA and stall.......and dare I say it spin too, after all if one magic slated wing exceeds max AoA before the other then it will flip.

let's not forget the reason the 109 got slats was to improve it's 'low speed' handling......much like any other aircraft with slats (no coincidence slats feature heavily on STOL aircraft) and was nothing to do with making it better at turning, simply it was to prevent that very skittish high-speed, high-loading wing from killing pilots at approach speeds.

*Buzzsaw* 12-02-2012 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varrattu (Post 485035)
Just out of curiosity ... ...

Has anyone of you experience flying a real BF109E?

Regards

Salute All

Already posted this on the ATAG forum.

This is from Rob Erdos. He is a former Canadian Armed Forces military pilot, and now is a senior test pilot with the National Research Council's Flight Research Laboratory in Ottawa. (Canada's equivalent of NASA) He is also the manager of Warbirds at VINTAGE WINGS, a non profit society in Ottawa Canada which operates quite a number of Warbirds, including a Spitfire XVI, P-51D, Hurricane II and IV, KittyHawk III, (P-40N), Corsair ID, Lysander, F-86 Sabre, Harvard and Tiger Moth, as well as other vintage civilian aircraft. He also occasionally is invited to fly other Vintage Warbirds, including the only regularly flown 109E in the world, which is based in southern Ontario Canada, the aircraft is "White 14", recovered in Russia and rebuilt.

You may have seen videos of this aircraft, here is another one: (not being flown by Rob this time)

[video=youtube;jNUNJ5wdBZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNUNJ5wdBZc[/video]

And here is Rob's evaluation. Note that this aircraft does not have weapons or ammunition, or armour, and the original radio has been replaced by a lighter modern one. So it is approx. 250 kg lighter than the original fully equipped 109E.

http://www.vintagewings.ca/Portals/0...ies/Erdos8.jpg

Quote:

Flying the Messerschmitt Bf-109E - by Rob Erdos, Vintage Wings of Canada

“Achtung Spitfire”, I heard in a ridiculous German accent. I smiled. The voice was my own. My head swivelled within the tight confines of the Bf-109 cockpit, looking for the attacker. There it was, above and behind, waiting to pounce upon me from out of the sun! This particular “Spitfire” (pronounced Schpitfire)looked like an unassuming summer cumulus cloud, but I turned to meet the attack nonetheless. An intense and terrifying dogfight ensued, as the Bf-109 twisted and turned to pursue the advantage. The enemy was cunning, but within minutes a particular southern Ontario cumulus cloud had been reduced to wispy shreds, and I had gained a much better understanding of the renowned Messerschmitt Bf-109.

May 2008 found me at Niagara South airfield, the base of the Russell Aviation Group, operators of the pristine and lovely Bf-109E, registered C-FEML, and at that time the only “Emil” flying in the world. In addition to the Messerschmitt, Russell Aviation operates a Spitfire Mk IX and Hurricane XII. The air display season was fast approaching, and the Russell folks needed maintenance test flights performed on all of their aeroplanes. As a happy outcome of my work with Vintage Wings of Canada, I was already familiar with the British fighters. The Messerschmitt was new to me, but I understandably relished the opportunity to sample the flying qualities of the “other side” of the Battle of Britain. It’s a single-seater. You check yourself out. With the concurrence of the nice folks at Russell Group, I went to work.

The cockpit of the Bf-109 was a tight fit, even in comparison to the snug dimensions of the Spitfire cockpit. The seating position was semi-reclined, indicating either that Dr. Messerschmitt appreciated the importance of g-tolerance, or that he was trying hard to reduce my frontal area. As an outcome of both the reclined seating position and being tightly wrapped by the airframe, the forward field of view was nearly non-existent; a characteristic unfortunately common to this vintage of fighters. In stark comparison to the semi-random layout of British cockpits of this era, the Bf-109 instrument panel was arrayed in a thoughtful, almost modern manner. That was when my eyes caught upon the instruments: the airspeed indicator was labelled in kilometers per hour, oil pressure in “kilograms per square centimetre”, power was indicated in “ATA”. An apparently important instrument, devoid of other markings read, “Luftschraube Stellungsanzeige”. Hmm. This was getting interesting.

Returning to the cockpit with my German-English dictionary and a calculator, I took note of the controls. The small control stick fell comfortably to hand, although full displacement seemed to use most of the space in the cockpit. The pedals, oddly situated more ahead than below me in the reclining cockpit, incorporated a metal strap for negative ‘g’ restraint. The throttle was a small stub mounted on the left cockpit sidewall. A larger throttle would have hit my thigh as I advanced it. I scowled at the tailwheel locking mechanism mounted beneath the canopy rail directly under my left elbow. I had already knocked that lever several times, but I mustn’t do it again. Performing a take-off or landing with the tailwheel unlocked was guaranteed to have an unpleasant outcome. Wearing a parachute and helmet, I tried to close the heavy side-hinged canopy, finding that it rested atop my helmet with about two inches to spare before closing. I am 5 feet 9 inches tall. The helmet was reluctantly left behind. Have I mentioned that the cockpit was tight?


Notable in their absence were any further engine controls. Mixture was automatic. The propeller control was truly unusual, consisting of a rocker switch mounted on the inside of the throttle lever. The switch manually controlled the pitch of the propeller, via an electric motor mounted on the engine crankcase, and indicated on a clock-like instrument. (Aha! I think I know what “Luftschraube Stellungsanzeige” must mean!) I could hardly believe the implications of this installation: the Bf-109E had only a controllable pitch propeller. It did not have a propeller governor! I would have thought automated propeller speed control essential for an aeroplane with a 400 knot speed range. Indeed, such systems were fitted to later Bf-109 variants. I noticed that this particular aeroplane incorporated a small electrical switch on the floor, marked “Prop: Auto/Manual”, but it was wired to the Manual position. I was later told that this aeroplane never flew operationally with the system operative. The lack of propeller governing aroused my suspicions about the workload associated with dogfighting in the aeroplane.

The most innovative and interesting feature in the cockpit were two large concentric wheels situated on the left sidewall, aft of the throttle. The outer wheel actuated the flaps and inner wheel controlled the pitch trim by changing the incidence of the horizontal stabilizer. Since the flaps inevitably affect the pitch trim, the pilot could ostensibly maintain trim during flap deployment by actuating both wheels simultaneously. An ingenious mechanism within the wing allowed the ailerons to droop for further lift as the flaps reached full extension. The wings incorporated roughly half-span leading edge slats. These actuated independently under the influence of aerodynamic and inertial forces. In all, this was a very complicated wing, and one designed to squeeze as much lift as possible from each square foot of area. That’s good because another thing became evident about the Bf-109’s wing: there wasn’t much of it. The wing loading of the Bf-109E was almost 50% higher than the Spitfire. This too would be factor in air combat performance, and I would need to keep it in mind if I were ever attacked by a cumulus cloud.

Once my preparations were complete and all requisite German-English translations were made, it was time to go flying. Starting the rare Daimler-Benz DB601 engine was relatively straight forward, although the staccato note of the powerplant initially took me by surprise. I have always found something reassuring in the deep sonorous thrum of the Merlin; a sound akin to standing behind a dozen self-satisfied tenors. The Daimler engine, by comparison, struck me as clattering and harsh, more like a barrel full of hammers rolling down a staircase. I flashed a look of concern at the Russell Group’s Chief Engineer, Gerry Bettridge. His cheerful grin seemed to confirm that this cacophony was not unusual.

Taxiing is the Messerchmitt’s opportunity to get you alone and to whisper a warning in your ear. There is a grotesquely high download on the tailwheel in the Bf-109; a situation made evident by the requirement for full rudder, hard braking, forward stick and a blast of power to effect a turn. Try that in a Spitfire and the propeller will chew dirt! While odd, it at least gave reassurance that even aggressive braking would be unlikely to result in a nose-over. Unfortunately it also meant that the center of gravity was very far aft of the main wheels. That is not a good thing. Recalling my misadventures in once trying to steer a shopping cart backwards down a hill, I made a mental note that the tail might try to pass me during the landing.

The geometry of the undercarriage is perhaps the most unusual feature of the Bf-109. A digression is in order to appreciate how its characteristics would manifest themselves during take-off or landing. Some sources claim that between 15-25% of the Bf-109s ever built were damaged or destroyed during take-off or landing accidents. I find this a remarkable figure for a combat aeroplane – especially one that served on the losing side of the war! Most contemporary histories of the Bf-109 attribute this to the narrow undercarriage track, however this misses the point. (The Spitfire’s undercarriage is just as narrow, and it doesn’t have any of the Bf-109’s quirks. It has its own quirks – but that’s another story.) Dr. Messerschmitt faced a challenge in the design of his first fighter. In the interest of simplifying transport and repair of the aeroplane, it was designed with the undercarriage attached to the fuselage, such that the wings could be completely removed with the aeroplane resting on its wheels. The undercarriage struts were attached to a complicated forging at the firewall aft of the engine mount. The narrow width of the fuselage structure necessitated installing the undercarriage legs splayed outwards. This feature became the aeroplane’s Achilles heel.

Imagine that you have a bicycle wheel in your hands. Roll the wheel with the axle parallel to the ground. It goes straight. Now roll the wheel such that the axle is not parallel to the ground. The wheel turns. Let’s return to the Bf-109. Both of the tires are mounted “crooked”, rolling with a camber angle of about 25°. Consequently both wheels want to turn inwards under the aeroplane. When the aeroplane is rolling with an equal download on both wheels, symmetry prevails; both wheels fight to a stand-off, and the aeroplane rolls straight. Now imagine that something causes the download on the wheels to momentarily become unequal. In that case the rolling friction of the tires becomes uneven and the turning tendency of the “heavy” tire asserts itself. What might do this? Well, crosswinds. Or torque from engine power. However, the most dangerous culprit is turning. With the aeroplane’s centre of gravity situated high above the tires, a swerve will set loose large centrifugal forces that cause the aeroplane to try to roll over the tires. This is true of any aeroplane, but in this scenario the unusual camber of the Bf-109’s tires creates strong directional instability, requiring a different type of control strategy for take-offs and landings. Tight heading control or aggressive tracking of the runway centerline can set off abrupt directional divergence. Better for the pilot to relax, merely dampen heading changes, and accept small heading errors. Funny, I didn’t feel relaxed.

These thoughts ran through my mind as I taxied for take-off at the Niagara South airfield. “Don’t fight with the aeroplane. Accept any heading you get and roll straight”, I told myself as I took position for take-off. The Daimler engine responded by growling at me, as I applied a final stab of power to turn onto the runway centerline. Okay, pause. I checked that the flaps were set to 20°, set the trim to one degree UP, set the propeller pitch to “11:30” on the weird clock indicator, and then locked the tailwheel. Then I checked the tailwheel lock. Then I double checked. Looking straight ahead I took note of the 3-point attitude: completely blind, save for two small strips of horizon visible at the edges of the windscreen. Mentally noting the 3-point attitude wasn’t enough. I would need to quickly re-establish this view when it came time to land, so I took out my secret weapon. Using a black grease pencil I drew the meagre horizon line on the inside of the windscreen.

I opened the throttle slowly. Directional control authority quickly felt quite positive, although I recalled my commitment to use it judiciously. A fairly strong push on the stick was required to gently lift the tail as the airspeed passed 60 km/hr; an act that was further destabilizing, however things were quickly improving as the airspeed increased. With a gentle skip, the Bf-109 became airborne around 110 km/hr. I retracted the undercarriage and immediately turned into a climbing orbit overhead the airfield while I confirmed that the engine indications were stable.

Power was set at 1.15 ATA (atmospheres of manifold pressure) at the recommended climb speed of 250 km/hr. Propeller speed was sensitive to airspeed changes, so a slight pitch reduction was required to stabilize at 2300 RPM. The Daimler engine sounded much smoother in flight. My initial impressions of the aeroplane were mixed. The field of view was poor, necessitating continuous clearing turns in the climb. The greenhouse canopy structure seemed to be slightly obtrusive no matter where I looked. Control response in the climb was satisfyingly light and crisp, with good harmony between pitch and roll control forces. Directional stability was clearly inadequate. Every roll input required conscious pedal coordination. The absence of rudder trim proved a considerable annoyance during the protracted climb. In the interest of “calibrating” my aileron-rudder coordination, I tried a few aggressive roll reversals in the climb and received an unpleasant surprise. The application of full aileron caused the aeroplane to shudder and buffet in a manner that, to my overactive imagination, seemed like I was receiving machine gun fire. I rolled level and breathed. Subsequent investigation showed that the onset of buffet occurred at large aileron displacements, and was associated with a very slight lightening of the aileron control forces and a distinct high-frequency “hammering” in the stick. I had seen that before. Aileron stall! It was becoming clear to me. Dr. Messerschmitt kindly provided me with powerful mechanical leverage to actuate the ailerons against the aerodynamic forces, and that explained why the stick forces were so pleasantly light. That is certainly not the case in the Spitfire, where the ailerons stiffen terribly at high speeds. In the Bf-109 I unfortunately had enough leverage under some conditions to deflect the aileron to the point of airflow separation. The results were a bit disappointing. In spite of the light control feel, the roll rate achievable in the Bf-109 was no better than the Spitfire.

I levelled off above the airfield and went to work. My test card began with an investigation of the slow flight and stall characteristics, in order to prepare myself early for the eventual landing.

The power was reduced to just above idle, and the aeroplane decelerated for a clean stall. I was fascinated to watch as the leading edge slats automatically extended themselves into the airflow. The effect was smooth and transparent, however I noted that the rate of deceleration increased as the slats extended. I made note of this effect, intending further investigation during air combat scenarios. The clean stall occurred at 125 km/hr indicated airspeed, preceded by a 3-5 knot band of mild buffeting. That’s 68 knots. I wasn’t sure if I was impressed or skeptical. The stall was marked by a mild pitch and right roll break; cues so mild that they were hardly inhibiting. I continued to explore increasing angles of attack until I was happily flying along with full aft stick. No sweat. In the clean configuration, the Bf-109 retained its lateral control effectiveness without any tendency to depart - even tolerating mild sideslips at full aft stick.

Next I investigated the stall characteristics in the landing configuration. The undercarriage and flaps were extended, the power reduced to idle, and a gradual deceleration was performed. Roll control response became sluggish once the ailerons drooped with full flap selection, and it exhibited considerably more adverse yaw. Again a mild buffet preceded a gentle pitch break, this time at 88 km/hr. 88 km/hr!? That’s 47 knots indicated airspeed. Now I was definitely skeptical. There was simply no way that this modest wing area was holding this mass of aeroplane aloft at 47 knots. I recalled the location of the pitot-static probe, mounted close under the left wing, and knew with certainty that it was lying. Nevertheless, the low-airspeed and stalling characteristics of the Bf-109 were extremely benign and forgiving; a highly desirable characteristic in a fighter.

While the undercarriage and flaps were extended, I took the opportunity to do a few landings – in the clear air at 6000 feet above the airfield. I did a simulated final turn to parallel the runway and flared to the 3-point attitude, with the objective of “landing” my altimeter exactly at the 6000 foot mark. The final turn in a fighter typically involves a gradual turning deceleration to the runway. I found that controlling speed and descent gradient during the turn were hardly demanding, however the forward field of view was gradually disappearing. No surprise there. Elevator response was suitably precise to capture the 3-point attitude without difficulty. Overshoot from the pseudo-landing was easy – at least for a high-performance fighter. The Bf-109E is powerful, however propeller effects were easily managed. Chalk up one advantage of having low directional stability.

Now that I felt I could land it, I was eager to pursue my curiosity about the Bf-109’s qualities as a fighter. I set cruise power setting (1.0 ATA manifold pressure, 2300 RPM), stabilizing at 415 km/hr at 5500 feet. That equates to a modest 225 knots indicated airspeed, but it wasn’t my engine. The aeroplane felt comfortable in cruise, exhibiting weak but positive speed stability, as evidenced by the gentle, progressive elevator forces required to maintain off-trim speeds. A gentle sustained sideslip gave evidence of both weak directional stability and weak lateral stability, at least by modern standards. The rudder forces seemed very light. The sideslip also induced a gentle nose-down pitch response, indicative of possible elevator blanking. All this talk about weak stability doesn’t imply criticism of its qualities as a fighter. The flip side of low stability is often high agility. Nevertheless this wouldn’t be my first choice of an aeroplane for instrument flying.

The next order of business was to become familiar with manoeuvring the machine. I performed a wing-over and was immediately reminded of the benefits of propeller speed governing. Lacking such amenities, the propeller speed on the Bf-109 decayed terribly as the speed reduced, reaching as low as 1600 RPM at the top of the manoeuvre. The result was a slightly laboured sound from the engine, as it struggled with high torque at low speed. The effect was not unlike taking your foot off your car’s clutch from a standstill in fifth gear. Ouch. Not good for the engine, and not good for performance. I noted that the peak of the wing-over had been about 1700 feet above my starting altitude. I repeated the manoeuvre, this time maintaining a constant propeller speed using the rocker switch on the throttle. The engine sounded happier, if the growling Daimler could be described as “happy”, and this time the top of the manoeuvre managed to achieve 2300 feet of altitude gain. Clearly any pilot wishing to obtain maximum performance from the Bf-109E would need to carefully regulate propeller speed. Unfortunately, this draws the pilot’s attention into the cockpit, rather than allowing him to focus outside where the dangers lurk. I was left wondering whether the young lads who flew the Bf-109E in combat really applied that degree of finesse, or whether the circumstances of combat necessitated cruder engine handling.

Once familiar with coordination of propeller pitch with speed changes, the Bf-109 and I performed some gentle aerobatics together – strictly for technical investigation, you understand. Loops were enlightening. The low directional stability could result in comically large heading variations unless careful rudder coordination was applied. I was reminded of a long-ago instructor of mine, who remarked upon seeing my aerobatics, “Nice loop. Now do one to the right.” It was easily mastered with practice. Multiple manoeuvres seemed to result in a notable decay in speed, particularly whenever the leading edge slats deployed; a stark contrast to the Spitfire, whose elliptical wings retain energy nicely under sustained ‘g’. The Messerschmitt was paying the price for its high wing loading.

It was at this point that I was pounced upon by that dastardly cumulus. “Fine”, I thought, “let’s see what this aeroplane can do”. I climbed steeply and turned to bring the guns to bear upon the target. Field of view through the greenhouse canopy was again a hindrance as I looked over my shoulder to gauge the turn. The cumulus turned and dove steeply to flee (bear with me for a moment…). A deflection shot would be required to engage from long range, however the limited field of view down over the nose would make this difficult. The Bf-109 built speed rapidly in a dive, however the necessity to attend to propeller speed proved a distraction as I closed quickly upon the target. Pulling out of the dive, I discovered that the Bf-109’s elevators became distressingly heavy at high speed. I had read wartime accounts of Spitfire pilots taking Bf-109s into steep high-speed dives, knowing that the Bf-109 would be unable to pull out. This was a convincing demonstration, requiring a two-handed pull to achieve a 3.5 ‘g’ recovery at 450 km/hour. I flashed past my adversary like it was standing still. With a gallant salute, I disengaged. After less than an hour, the fuel gauges were telling me that it was time to return to Niagara South.

The circuit procedures were familiar from my rehearsals at altitude, but this time it was for keeps. A standard overhead break was performed, but delayed until well past the upwind end of the runway. Extension of the flaps required about 30 quarter-turns of the flap wheel; a time-consuming process. The downwind leg was entered at 200 km/hour, decreasing to 150 km/hour as the undercarriage and flaps were extended. The numbers on the airspeed indicator seemed high, and I had to keep telling myself that they were “only kilometers”. From abeam the touchdown point on downwind, a continuous decelerating turn was performed to the flare. With virtually no forward field of view, a straight-in final approach leg was definitely to be avoided. I entered the flare at 125 km/hour, maintaining a trickle of power. I can’t claim to have been completely at ease, but within seconds the wheels began to gently rumble across the grass. The Bf-109 was home from another mission.
Note his comments about the rollrate of the 109E not being any better than the Spitfire are based on his own experience in flying later model Spitfires with metal ailerons, the Spit I had fabric ailerons, thus not as good a rollrate.

His comments about taxing, taking off and landing in the 109E are particularly relevant. The game 109E has none of these characteristics, in fact it is just as prone as the Spitfire and Hurricane to tipping over on its nose, not accurate at all. Neither are the directional issues apparent in the game aircraft. Other characteristics which are absent or muted are the precessional, yaw and trim effects at high throttle/low speed, as well as the sideslip characteristics at various other speeds.

Another video of the same plane, this one in HD:

[video=youtube;0cLmBZWDyBM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cLmBZWDyBM&playnext=1&list=PL6901DDBAE600 2821&feature=results_main[/video]

NZtyphoon 12-02-2012 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Varrattu (Post 485035)
Just out of curiosity ... ...

Has anyone of you experience flying a real BF109E?

Regards

Nope, but it is interesting to read the reports of pilots who have. (also cited by Buzzsaw)

Quote:

Once familiar with coordination of propeller pitch with speed changes, the Bf-109 and I performed some gentle aerobatics together – strictly for technical investigation, you understand. Loops were enlightening. The low directional stability could result in comically large heading variations unless careful rudder coordination was applied. I was reminded of a long-ago instructor of mine, who remarked upon seeing my aerobatics, “Nice loop. Now do one to the right.” It was easily mastered with practice. Multiple manoeuvres seemed to result in a notable decay in speed, particularly whenever the leading edge slats deployed; a stark contrast to the Spitfire, whose elliptical wings retain energy nicely under sustained ‘g’. The Messerschmitt was paying the price for its high wing loading.
The 109 needed slats to compensate for its high wing loading and lack of washout, which lots of other other fighters had; eg: Spitfire, Fw 190. Slats were simply another way of changing the stall characteristics of a highly loaded wing. They were not the miraculous device that some seem to think.

Crumpp 12-03-2012 01:56 AM

Quote:

the miraculous device
No miracle required....just basic physics.

;)

Kurfürst 12-03-2012 05:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 485033)
Kurfurst I suggest you talk to the 109 pilots who are in perfect control of their aircraft and never stall it even in very aggressive maneuveurs (that someone here claimed to be impossible).

*sigh* point me in the direction of these experience pilots. Besides you do not seem to get the point - the problem is not that the 109 stalls (it should) neither that it does not outturn RAF planes (it shouldn't though getting near to it's turn limit SHOULD be easier than on those) but HOW it stalls. Stalls are extremely violent on this aircraft and spins occur often.

And apparently it's not just my problem. And dear Sir, I fly the 109 since original Il-2 beta - I have never had the problem with it like it's in Il2, well, except for something was extremely badly sc***d up with the G-6's FM.

"Word came from the Luftwaffe out of Antwerp early in the spring of 1943 that many pilots had experienced spin problems with the Me109 G and had to bail out. Numerous airplanes had been lost. Karl Baur's first reaction: "This is almost a foolproof airplane. How do these guys accomplish that?" The Me 109 had a relatively high wing loading (32.2 lb/sq ft) and therefore stalled readily under heavy G forces but the stall was gentle and the aircraft exhibited good control under G forces. If the stick was eased forward the aircraft immediately unstalled with no tendency to flick over on its back and spin. While not totally spin proof it took a fairly ham fisted pilot to get into trouble in the Me 109.

It took Karl several nerve wracking flights before he was able to get a Me 109 into a spin. Finally, after he had tried every possible dog fight maneuver, he had it figured out. It was during those split seconds before going into a vertical dive that it was possible to get this airplane to spin. Only rough flying inexperienced pilots were able to do it. Karl's solution to the problem was very simple. He advised: "Drop the landing gear boys, and the spin will end immediately." The dropped landing gear would appear to lower the airspeed and reduce the severity of the yaw (the movement around the normal axis of the aircraft, i.e. direction stability). Once the aircraft is not spinning (yawning) around its center of gravity the aircraft being in a nose down attitude accelerates and becomes unstalled.


p.86 of: A Pilot's Pilot, Karl Baur - Chief Test Pilot for Messerschmitt by Isolde Baur

Quote:

I wonder if FF helps, I am using MSFF2 joystick and I can really 'feel' the aircraft.
Maybe, but I do not have a FFB joystick. I tried it once at a friends, but it behaved very weird in CLOD.

Quote:

Hurricane's stall behaviour is much worse than 109s btw, with droping the wing if you're not careful.
Yes, the Hurri definietely sucks in this regard - but I do not know how the Hurris stall characteristics were.

*Buzzsaw* 12-03-2012 06:02 AM

Salute

Kurfurst is quite correct in noting the game 109 is quite difficult to recover from spins. I have often seen game 109's spinning to their destruction from considerable heights.

This is quite clearly an incorrect modelling of the real aircraft, which was in fact easy to recover from spins or stalls, one would have to be quite ham handed to maintain a spin in the historical aircraft. Not impossible mind you, given a pilot doing all the wrong things, but given a pilot with the training, recovery should be prompt and with a relatively minor altitude loss.

As far as the historical Spitfire stall characteristics were concerned, there was definitely the possibility of a violent flick and spin if the aircraft was pulled into a high G Stall, however, the Spitfire had a characteristic which allowed experienced pilots to know exactly how far to take it. At a point just before the stall, the aircraft would begin to shudder slightly, this was the warning. Experienced pilots learned to ride this edge, as the shudder happened, and maintain it just at that point.

Unfortunately, this vibration or shudder is not present in the game either.

JtD 12-03-2012 06:39 AM

If the 109 had the elevator authority of a Spitfire, it would certainly be possible to send it into a flick or spin easily as well. Stalling characteristics and control characteristics are related, but still a different pair of shoes.

Hurricane stalls/spins were more problematic than the Spitfires, but it didn't have the sensitive elevator.

Recovery from spins shouldn't be hard in any of the three, but easiest in the 109.

NZtyphoon 12-03-2012 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485077)
Right.

Obviously folks do not understand how the LE devices work. Many people would benefit from reading chapter 19 of a book called "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

It would eliminate all the stupid arguments on these boards.

Obviously slats are merely another aerodynamic device which help improve flight characteristics, as are fixed slots, saw-tooths, flap blowing etc etc - nothing magic, nothing worth making a song and dance routine over. One wonders what the 109 would have been like to fly without the slats.

KG26_Alpha 12-03-2012 01:04 PM

Leave the personal attacks out of this thread please.

OK

Seems neither of them take heed of what's been asked of them

Posts removed and both of them on a short holiday together.

Glider 12-03-2012 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 485180)
Salute

Kurfurst is quite correct in noting the game 109 is quite difficult to recover from spins. I have often seen game 109's spinning to their destruction from considerable heights.

This is quite clearly an incorrect modelling of the real aircraft, which was in fact easy to recover from spins or stalls, one would have to be quite ham handed to maintain a spin in the historical aircraft. Not impossible mind you, given a pilot doing all the wrong things, but given a pilot with the training, recovery should be prompt and with a relatively minor altitude loss.

As far as the historical Spitfire stall characteristics were concerned, there was definitely the possibility of a violent flick and spin if the aircraft was pulled into a high G Stall, however, the Spitfire had a characteristic which allowed experienced pilots to know exactly how far to take it. At a point just before the stall, the aircraft would begin to shudder slightly, this was the warning. Experienced pilots learned to ride this edge, as the shudder happened, and maintain it just at that point.

Unfortunately, this vibration or shudder is not present in the game either.

Can I just say that I found this to be a very good summary of the situation and post 44 is one of the best descriptions I have seen of flying the Me 109.

Thanks for both

Crumpp 12-04-2012 12:41 AM

Quote:

One wonders what the 109 would have been like to fly without the slats.
It would have been rather bad in the stall characteristics.

The wing would have stalled all at once instead of root first and the tips receiving an energized boundary layer to keep the flow attached.
The entire wing stalling would be violent and uncontrollable.
Same thing the Spitfire would do without the twist. Major difference being twisting the wing does not energize the boundary layer so the ratio of turbulent to laminar flow remains the same.
The slats increase the amount of turbulent flow over the wing. The turbulent flow portion of the boundary layer is the high energy, high lift portion.

Crumpp 12-04-2012 02:57 AM

Quote:

nothing to do with making it better at turning
Obviously, this comment is an effort to troll because it is contrary to the physics behind the slats.

The slats are a very practical method of allowing the pilot to quickly, precisely, and safely achieve CLmax.

They act as training wheels allowing the pilot to maximize performance of the aircraft without fear of losing control.

CWMV 12-04-2012 04:22 AM

Oberleutnant Erwin Leykauf said, ‘For us, the more experienced pilots, real
manoeuvring only started when the slats were out.'

From Messerschmitt Bf 109 at War. Pretty common statement. Ive seen interviews with Rall where he said the same thing.

*Buzzsaw* 12-04-2012 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485328)
The slats are a very practical method of allowing the pilot to quickly, precisely, and safely achieve CLmax.

Actually your comments are an exaggeration.

What the slats do is allow a pilot the confidence that if he pulls too much G and stalls his aircraft, the likelyhood of a violent spin is diminished and the knowledge he should be able to recover relatively easily.

The slats in themselves do not give any guarantee of a stall not occurring, they merely make the event, when it occurs, less violent.

The pilot still must be able to judge whether or not his aircraft is about to depart, and how many G's he is able to pull before departure may occur.

The slats opened prior to the stall, by RAF estimation, approx. 1/2 a G, and in pulling further G's and in order to avoid a stall, the pilot had to know the further signs of a stall approach, in the same way a Spitfire or Hurricane pilot was required to monitor his aircraft's behaviour.

In addition, the installation of the slats was not without penalty. As noted, the slats by deploying, increased the lift generated by the outer section of the wing, but they also generate more drag and reduce the speed of the aircraft. For earlier models of the 109, in particular the E, the chances of the slats deploying assymetrically in a turn was a factor, which was noted to cause aileron snatching and which could cause the aircraft to change direction without the pilot's intention.

NZtyphoon 12-04-2012 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 485340)
Actually your comments are an exaggeration.

What the slats do is allow a pilot the confidence that if he pulls too much G and stalls his aircraft, the likelyhood of a violent spin is diminished and the knowledge he should be able to recover relatively easily.

The slats in themselves do not give any guarantee of a stall not occurring, they merely make the event, when it occurs, less violent.

The pilot still must be able to judge whether or not his aircraft is about to depart, and how many G's he is able to pull before departure may occur.

The slats opened prior to the stall, by RAF estimation, approx. 1/2 a G, and in pulling further G's and in order to avoid a stall, the pilot had to know the further signs of a stall approach, in the same way a Spitfire or Hurricane pilot was required to monitor his aircraft's behaviour.

In addition, the installation of the slats was not without penalty. As noted, the slats by deploying, increased the lift generated by the outer section of the wing, but they also generate more drag and reduce the speed of the aircraft. For earlier models of the 109, in particular the E, the chances of the slats deploying assymetrically in a turn was a factor, which was noted to cause aileron snatching and which could cause the aircraft to change direction without the pilot's intention.

From what I have read 109 pilots did have concerns about the slats banging open, causing a jolt because of aileron snatching and sometimes upsetting the pilot's aim. Fact is that all designs are a compromise in one way or t'other - like I keep saying slats were no better nor worse at aiding control than other aerodynamic aids. In the end it was the pilot's skills and experience that made a real difference; learning how to get the best out of the aircraft was a great survival technique.

Crumpp 12-04-2012 12:29 PM

Quote:

Actually your comments are an exaggeration
Let's be specific and point exactly what you think I "exaggerated" otherwise your post is simple trolling and bait attempt to define me as being "red vs blue".

Buzzsaw, you state exactly the same thing I have without any change.

:rolleyes:

Crumpp 12-05-2012 03:40 AM

Quote:

4.4. Stalling Tests
We find that under all conditions tested, the Bf-109 has:

Quote:

no tendency to spin.
http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

Glider 12-05-2012 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CWMV (Post 485335)
Oberleutnant Erwin Leykauf said, ‘For us, the more experienced pilots, real
manoeuvring only started when the slats were out.'

From Messerschmitt Bf 109 at War. Pretty common statement. Ive seen interviews with Rall where he said the same thing.

The key of course are the words 'the more experienced pilots'. As the war went on the proportion of experienced pilots fell dramatically.

CWMV 12-05-2012 06:57 AM

With respect that has nothing to do with the purpose/effect of the slats. They did what they did, up to the pilot to exploit it.

Robo. 12-05-2012 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485525)
no tendency to spin.

The in-game 109 has not any unusal tendency to spin - you will stall her of course when you do a mistake and lose control. That is a very good match with the 'us experienced pilots'. I would say that the problem lies in the spin recovery, e.g. once the a/c enters the spin, it is more difficult to recover than it should be.

Crumpp 12-05-2012 12:57 PM

Quote:

you will stall her of course when you do a mistake and lose control
Again, they act like training wheels on a bicycle. In otherwords, it should be EXTREMELY difficult to spin the aircraft and very easy to recover.

Quote:

once the a/c enters the spin
The advantage of the slats is in preventing spins. Find a report on the spin characteristics of the Bf-109.

There is an engineering reason there is not one.

Robo. 12-05-2012 01:57 PM

So are you saying that the 109 was unspinnable? Even if the pilot made a mistake?

I see the point that the a/c in game is now too difficult to recover and I agree it should be addressed.

SlipBall 12-05-2012 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robo. (Post 485581)
So are you saying that the 109 was unspinnable? Even if the pilot made a mistake?

I see the point that the a/c in game is now too difficult to recover and I agree it should be addressed.


I find it easy to recover, trick being to act very fast with opposite rudder, & pitch throttle, to protect the engine

NZtyphoon 12-05-2012 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485572)
Again, they act like training wheels on a bicycle. In otherwords, it should be EXTREMELY difficult to spin the aircraft and very easy to recover.



The advantage of the slats is in preventing spins. Find a report on the spin characteristics of the Bf-109.

There is an engineering reason there is not one.

Interesting in light of the fact that one of the reasons the 109 was chosen over the He 112 was because test pilot Hermann Wurster was able to demonstrate a series of spins, 21 to port, 17 to starboard, before a group of Luftwaffe officials. Clearly the 109 was easy to recover from spins - the E probably a little more difficult than a Jumo engined prototype - but the slats were not some miracle cure for spins.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...0-page-001.jpg

Crumpp 12-05-2012 11:40 PM

Hey check it out......the slots resulted in far superior stall characteristics such that with the CG loaded fully aft, the airfract was spun in a tail heavy load safely!

Wow, that is good information. We I teach spins, the CG must be as far forward as possible for a very good reason.

Normally, a rearward CG spin is extremely dangerous and something to be avoided. To intentionally load the aircraft to its rearward limits and then spin it speaks volumes of the confidence in the slat operation.

Entry into a spin is much easier at any aircraft rearward CG limit but recovery is much more difficult if not impossible because the spin will flatten.

The aircraft showed no tendency to flatten the spin even at a rearward CG.

That pretty much says it all and proves the value of the LE slats.

Robo. 12-06-2012 12:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485682)
Hey check it out......the slots resulted in far superior stall characteristics such that with the CG loaded fully aft, the airfract was spun in a tail heavy load safely!

Wow, that is good information. We I teach spins, the CG must be as far forward as possible for a very good reason.

Normally, a rearward CG spin is extremely dangerous and something to be avoided. To intentionally load the aircraft to its rearward limits and then spin it speaks volumes of the confidence in the slat operation.

Entry into a spin is much easier at any aircraft rearward CG limit but recovery is much more difficult if not impossible because the spin will flatten.

The aircraft showed no tendency to flatten the spin even at a rearward CG.

That pretty much says it all and proves the value of the LE slats.

So in your opinion, what exactly is wrong with the Bf 109 we have in game regarding slats operation and spin recovery?

Crumpp 12-06-2012 02:53 AM

It is way too easy to enter a spin and the stall behavior is too violent.

The account Nztyphoon only relates the aircraft being spun at only at the most aft CG location.

Willy Radinger and Walter Schick's books on the Bf-109 development and testing go into some detail on the spin testing of the Bf-109.

Spin entry and normal recovery was a requirement in the RLM specification for a new fighter that the Bf-109 was designed under. They actually modified the Bf-109V1 for this purpose.

The testing experimented with different size slats as well as pilot deployable and retractable slats. It was a very expensive test because of the modifications required to meet the specification

CG location not only changes stall speeds in any aircraft, it effects both spin entry and recovery. At the forward limits, the aircraft is most difficult to spin and recovers the easiest. Aft CG limit is the opposite, easy to spin and difficult to recover.

Once more, we have two basic categories of CG limits. It is just like the difference between an Aircraft Flight Manual and Pilots Operating Handbook.

Quote:

When the Pilots Operating Handbook covers only a particular model or type of the aircraft, the Aircraft Flight Manual is very specific to the aircraft.
http://www.differencebetween.net/mis...n-afm-and-poh/

On every aircraft type there is a CG limits range published in the Type Certificate that covers the particular model or type. Each specific aircraft has a weight and balance sheet the cover the specific limits of that serial number aircraft. Like the Aircraft Flight Manual, that weight and balance is part of the airworthiness of that serial numbered aircraft.

So while a production type will have a set range, not every aircraft in that type will have the same CG limits.



My first airplane had LE slats and it was a hot topic on the owners forums on who could get their airplanes to spin. I had the airplane for 3 years and during that time I got it to spin only three times. It was work each time with the airplane just doing a normal stall. Each time, it was summer time (high density altitude), aft CG, and hard stomping on the rudder to get a spin out of it.

That is normal behavior for LE slats. They just won't spin depending on the CG location and conditions. That is why slats are used as an anti-spin device by engineers!

The Bf-109 exhibits the same normal behavior for LE Slats. It is difficult at best to get it to spin under normal operating conditions

Crumpp 12-06-2012 03:15 AM

Quote:

I even tried spinning it - according tp the POH it was possible, but
despite several attempts I never managed a convincing spin which was
quite re-assuring!.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Rallye/message/2974

LE Slats equipped aircraft are very pedestrian in the stall / spin behavior department by design.

taildraggernut 12-06-2012 09:15 AM

Entering stalls/spins from a gentle deceleration in level flight is a very different affair from an accelerated stall.

Crumpp 12-06-2012 12:24 PM

Quote:

Entering stalls/spins from a gentle deceleration in level flight is a very different affair from an accelerated stall.
The results of both coordinated and uncoordinated accelerated stall behavior are documented in the RAE report.

See:

Quote:

4.4. Stalling Tests.
The Bf-109 exhibits typical LE slat equipped behaviors.

Quote:

When the slots were fully open the aircraft could be turned quite steadily until very near the stall. If the stick was then pulled back a little more the aircraft suddenly shuddered, and either tended to come out of the turn or dropped its wing further, oscillating meanwhile in pitch and roll and rapidly losing height ; the aircraft immediately unstalled if the stick was eased forward. Even in a very tight turn the stall was quite gentle, with no tendency for the aircraft to suddenly flick over on to its back and spin.
Quote:

When the Me.109 was following the Hurricane or Spitfire, it was found that our aircraft turned inside the Me.109 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn. In a surprisingly large number of cases, however, the Me. 109 succeeded in keeping on the tail of the Spitfire or Hurricane during these turning tests, merely because our Pilots would not tighten up the turn suficiently from fear of stalling and spinning.
http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

macro 12-06-2012 01:02 PM

The second quote you put in there only depends on the pilots not the aircraft.

The 109 does spin out far too easily in game. From what iv read it should drop its nose and wing if in a turn, and not be able to gain speed or height until the stick is returned or pushed foward to regain speed to get the inward parts of the wing out of the stall and return airflow to normal. Should feel like its floating but actually in a controlled fall. Is that right?

Crumpp 12-06-2012 01:07 PM

That is pretty much stall behavior in an LE slat equipped high aspect ratio wing, macro!

Quote:

The second quote you put in there only depends on the pilots not the aircraft.
Yes, it depends on the pilots human reaction to the behavior of the aircraft at the stall point.

taildraggernut 12-06-2012 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485747)
That is pretty much stall behavior in an LE slat equipped high aspect ratio wing, macro!



Yes, it depends on the pilots human reaction to the behavior of the aircraft at the stall point.

But the second quote does not suggest the Spits or Hurries were actually in the stall, rather it suggests the Spit/hurri pilots should have pulled harder like in the first part of the same quote...

Quote:

it was found that our aircraft turned inside the Me.109 without difficulty when flown by determined pilots who were not afraid to pull their aircraft round hard in a tight turn
that second quote is continuously used out of context, to translate it in simple terms it just means that 'a surprisingly large number of cases' which reads as less than a majority of the time and perhaps even very few times and only when the pursued Spits/Hurries were being flown by less determined pilots then the 109 managed to keep on their tail......why else would they be 'surprised' about it.

So what? the 109 didn't have vicious stall characteristics, it seems apparent that in a 109 you just shouldn't be messing around in that regime of flight due to a being completely disadvantaged in relative turn performance against Spits and Hurries, as Crumpp has confirmed an aircraft with LE slats is unable to maintain performance in tight turns due to high drag.

macro 12-06-2012 03:15 PM

So yes yes spit/hurri turns inside 109 as 109 would stall when trying to turn with the when flying "on the edge" (planes edge not pilots!) but the stall would be a smooth drop of the nose/wing/speed and height. Not a flip over and flat spin which is what we see in game.

Seems simple enough to me and i know jack all about aerodynamics.

In game though, i think the real stall would bemore dangerous than the one they have now. Shooting a 109 floating down would be alot easier than shooting one goin into a spin and overshooting them! 109 pilots use the spin to advantage at the moment as a last resort to get out of gun site.

raaaid 12-06-2012 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 485769)
109 pilots use the spin to advantage at the moment as a last resort to get out of gun site.

i hate that manouber when im about to shoot someone

its amazing hhow we online rediscovered this techniques

taildraggernut 12-06-2012 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 485769)
So yes yes spit/hurri turns inside 109 as 109 would stall when trying to turn with the when flying "on the edge" (planes edge not pilots!) but the stall would be a smooth drop of the nose/wing/speed and height. Not a flip over and flat spin which is what we see in game.

Seems simple enough to me and i know jack all about aerodynamics.

In game though, i think the real stall would bemore dangerous than the one they have now. Shooting a 109 floating down would be alot easier than shooting one goin into a spin and overshooting them! 109 pilots use the spin to advantage at the moment as a last resort to get out of gun site.

not quite, as reports show the 109 did drop a wing slightly in a gentle stall (about 10degrees) this is likely to be amplified in a high speed accelerated stall so it is possible to flip, but the spin should not be 'flat', the 109 has a good forward CoG and is likely to be quite easy to recover.

macro 12-06-2012 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taildraggernut (Post 485775)
not quite, as reports show the 109 did drop a wing slightly in a gentle stall (about 10degrees) this is likely to be amplified in a high speed accelerated stall so it is possible to flip, but the spin should not be 'flat', the 109 has a good forward CoG and is likely to be quite easy to recover.

So if you yanked on the stck and kept it there at high speeds it will flip? Forgive me not up to speed on terminology. Seems like you'd have to do this on purpose for it to happen.

At present, planes are flipping over at low speeds as well as high speeds which according to the reports is wrong.

macro 12-06-2012 06:02 PM

but inline with that, i thought 109 elevators were very heavy at high speeds so this yanking would be impossible?

taildraggernut 12-06-2012 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by macro (Post 485797)
but inline with that, i thought 109 elevators were very heavy at high speeds so this yanking would be impossible?

in real life yes the elevator was apparently heavy, but how are we able to simulate that? the inputs made on game controllers will be proportional irrespective of speed and you can make full deflection, until they make FF that really simulates control stiffening properly that's going to be a problem, I don't think a software solution that limited deflection at speed would be ideal.

it was only rumoured to be impossible to pull hard on the stick at the very highest speeds if you read the annecdotes about allied pilots forcing 109's to fly into the ground in dives.

macro 12-06-2012 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by taildraggernut (Post 485808)
in real life yes the elevator was apparently heavy, but how are we able to simulate that? the inputs made on game controllers will be proportional irrespective of speed and you can make full deflection, until they make FF that really simulates control stiffening properly that's going to be a problem, I don't think a software solution that limited deflection at speed would be ideal.

it was only rumoured to be impossible to pull hard on the stick at the very highest speeds if you read the annecdotes about allied pilots forcing 109's to fly into the ground in dives.

It seems that without ff for everyone limitimg the elevator movement in game would be the only solution for this. I fly a 109 sometimes and at very fast speeds the elevator has less effect already i think? So is it already modelled? Maybe just needs tweaking?

Robo. 12-06-2012 08:44 PM

Quote:

My number two said, 'I think you're going to get somebody on your tail,' so I told number one to break away - every man for himself. I went into a steep right-hand turn and then a 109 spun in while chasing me round in the right-hand bend. I was going quite slowly and he tried to get in front of me to shoot and he spun in. He pulled it too hard and he spun in so I put him down. I couldn't claim him because I didn't shoot him.
Above quote from 'Last of the few' by Max Arthur, combat report of a pilot of the 64th Squadron RAF, F/O Michael Wainwright.

WTE_Galway 12-07-2012 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw* (Post 485340)
Actually your comments are an exaggeration.


In addition, the installation of the slats was not without penalty. As noted, the slats by deploying, increased the lift generated by the outer section of the wing, but they also generate more drag and reduce the speed of the aircraft. For earlier models of the 109, in particular the E, the chances of the slats deploying assymetrically in a turn was a factor, which was noted to cause aileron snatching and which could cause the aircraft to change direction without the pilot's intention.

Hence the often quoted anecdotal comments by Luftwaffe veterans that the "better" 109E pilots would deliberately alternate between slats in and out, using the slats temporarily to tighten the turn or pull lead and then almost immediately easing on the stick to regain lost speed.


- Erwin Leykauf, German fighter pilot, 33 victories. Source: Messerschmitt Bf109 ja Saksan Sotatalous by Hannu Valtonen; Hurricane & Messerschmitt, Chaz Bowyer and Armand Van Ishoven:

http://www.virtualpilots.fi/feature/articles/109myths/

"The Bf 109s also had leading edge slats. When the 109 was flown, advertently or inadvertently, too slow, the slats shot forward out of the wing, sometimes with a loud bang which could be heard above the noise of the engine. Many times the slats coming out frightenened young pilots when they flew the Bf 109 for the first time in combat. One often flew near the stalling speed in combat, not only when flying straight and level but especially when turning and climbing. Sometimes the slats would suddenly fly out with a bang as if one had been hit, especially when one had throttled back to bank steeply. Indeed many fresh young pilots thought they were pulling very tight turns even when the slats were still closed against the wing. For us, the more experienced pilots, real manoeuvring only started when the slats were out. For this reason it is possible to find pilots from that period (1940) who will tell you that the Spitfire turned better than the Bf 109. That is not true. I myself had many dogfights with Spitfires and I could always out-turn them.
One had to enter the turn correctly, then open up the engine. It was a matter of feel. When one noticed the speed becoming critical - the aircraft vibrated - one had to ease up a bit, then pull back again, so that in plan the best turn would have looked like an egg or a horizontal ellipse rather than a circle. In this way one could out-turn the Spitfire - and I shot down six of them doing it. This advantage to the Bf 109 soon changed when improved Spitfires were delivered."

Crumpp 12-07-2012 01:43 AM

Quote:

they also generate more drag and reduce the speed of the aircraft
Right....

What you don't understand is that speed reduction reduces radius and improves turn performance until Va is reached.

The airplane that slows down the fastest to Va will win the instantenous turn fight.

Quote:

Hence the often quoted anecdotal comments by Luftwaffe veterans that the "better" 109E pilots would deliberately alternate between slats in and out, using the slats temporarily to tighten the turn or pull lead and then almost immediately easing on the stick to regain lost speed.
Exactly.

He is flying a yo-yo and not a constant altitude turn. By combining the climb advantage of the Bf-109 at low speed climbs with the advantage of the slats, Erwin Leykauf is defeating the constant altitude turn performance advantage of the Spitfires he is fighting.

Quote:

In most cases this steep climb at low airspeed was the only manceuvre whereby the Me.109 pilot could keep away from the Hurricane or Spitfire.
http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/...ls/Morgan.html

The Bf-109 and Spitfire are about as equal a match of dogfighters as one can get.

Quote:

Above quote from 'Last of the few' by Max Arthur, combat report of a pilot of the 64th Squadron RAF, F/O Michael Wainwright.
Are you fishing and this is bait?

What was the condition of the Bf-109 and the pilot? Was the aircraft damaged? Was the pilot wounded? Was it a real spin or did the pilot pass out??

In otherwords, it is an interesting story but without the details definately does not contradict the findings of the RLM or the RAE.

Al Schlageter 12-07-2012 02:02 AM

Quote:

What was the condition of the Bf-109 and the pilot? Was the aircraft damaged? Was the pilot wounded? Was it a real spin or did the pilot pass out??
Would a pilot in a damaged a/c or being wounded not try to 'get the heck out of Dodge' and not be the aggressor in combat?

Must have been one heck of a G he was pulling to pass out, especially in a 109.

NZtyphoon 12-07-2012 02:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter (Post 485868)
Would a pilot in a damaged a/c or being wounded not try to 'get the heck out of Dodge' and not be the aggressor in combat?

Must have been one heck of a G he was pulling to pass out, especially in a 109.

The first is a hard one to answer; that really depends on individuals and - in some cases - their indoctrination. Japanese pilots, for example often attacked when wounded or in damaged aircraft; one example was an A6M pilot during the Pearl Harbor attacks who tried to "body crash" a hanger because his aircraft was damaged and (I think) he was wounded(?). Nicholson, who won the V.C during the B of B, is another example of a pilot who chose to attack, albeit he was presented with the opportunity, while in desperate circumstances.

Robo. 12-07-2012 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485867)
Are you fishing and this is bait?

What was the condition of the Bf-109 and the pilot? Was the aircraft damaged? Was the pilot wounded? Was it a real spin or did the pilot pass out??

In otherwords, it is an interesting story but without the details definately does not contradict the findings of the RLM or the RAE.

No I am not fishing :o I was just reading that book and came across several instances of 109 pilots spinning in while trying to follow the RAF fighters in a tight turn.

Of course it does not say anything about the skill of the pilot(s) or state of the pilot and the plane. Maybe the plane wasn't a Bf 109 at all. Just remembered this thread and thought it was an interesting find - especially how you claim it was pretty much unspinnable because it had slats. I believe they helped a great deal but you'd have to be in perfect control of your plane. Same in the game - if you're in control and have experience in 109, you won't spin her. Good 109 pilots can be often seen maneuvring with Spitfires, all that you describe - yo-yos and use of vertical maneuvers - is already possible in the sim. I agree the Emil as too hard to recover but I don't find it too easy to spin. You can tell if your opponent is good and in control of his plane if he flies clean and makes tight turns (e.g. scissors / hammerheads) and does not drop his wing and loses control every now and then. I find that very good actually and in match with combat reports. 109 is not easy to master and requires experienced pilot to be flown to its full potential. RAF planes are easier but also, obviously, you need experience to fly them on the very edge.

taildraggernut 12-07-2012 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485867)
Right....

What you don't understand is that speed reduction reduces radius and improves turn performance until Va is reached.

The airplane that slows down the fastest to Va will win the instantenous turn fight..

Right

which still puts the Spitfire at advantage (which you have confirmed yourself) having extensively reminded us of how longitudinaly unstable the Spit is and how easy it was to put load on due to it's sensitivity in pitch it is going to be the best at bleeding off that energy quickly, like you said before the 109 really must keep speed up in order to have a turn advantage over the Spit.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485867)
Exactly.

He is flying a yo-yo and not a constant altitude turn. By combining the climb advantage of the Bf-109 at low speed climbs with the advantage of the slats, Erwin Leykauf is defeating the constant altitude turn performance advantage of the Spitfires he is fighting.

Yes....assuming the Spitfire remains in a level turn, in which case the Spitfire is simply making a mistake rather than suffering a disadvantage, the Spit has the option to extend away by split 's' and dive and wait for the 109 to chase and pull him into another attempt at turning.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485867)
Are you fishing and this is bait?

What was the condition of the Bf-109 and the pilot? Was the aircraft damaged? Was the pilot wounded? Was it a real spin or did the pilot pass out??

In otherwords, it is an interesting story but without the details definately does not contradict the findings of the RLM or the RAE.

it seems overly paranoid of you to view this with such scepticism, it is simply an account of a 109 making a piloting mistake and spinning, nothing sinister.

Crumpp 12-07-2012 01:54 PM

Quote:

taildraggernut
Trolling??

Crumpp 12-07-2012 02:08 PM

Quote:

especially how you claim it was pretty much unspinnable because it had slats.

Spin resistant is not the same as unspinnable.

Spin resistant is a specific term in aeronautical engineering. The problem is not my language but the fact it is being interpretated without the realization it is a defined measured condition.



Quote:

At the applicant's option, the airplane may be demonstrated to be spin resistant by the following:

(i) During the stall maneuver contained in § 23.201, the pitch control must be pulled back and held against the stop. Then, using ailerons and rudders in the proper direction, it must be possible to maintain wings-level flight within 15 degrees of bank and to roll the airplane from a 30 degree bank in one direction to a 30 degree bank in the other direction;

(ii) Reduce the airplane speed using pitch control at a rate of approximately one knot per second until the pitch control reaches the stop; then, with the pitch control pulled back and held against the stop, apply full rudder control in a manner to promote spin entry for a period of seven seconds or through a 360 degree heading change, whichever occurs first. If the 360 degree heading change is reached first, it must have taken no fewer than four seconds. This maneuver must be performed first with the ailerons in the neutral position, and then with the ailerons deflected opposite the direction of turn in the most adverse manner. Power and airplane configuration must be set in accordance with § 23.201(e) without change during the maneuver. At the end of seven seconds or a 360 degree heading change, the airplane must respond immediately and normally to primary flight controls applied to regain coordinated, unstalled flight without reversal of control effect and without exceeding the temporary control forces specified by § 23.143(c); and

(iii) Compliance with §§ 23.201 and 23.203 must be demonstrated with the airplane in uncoordinated flight, corresponding to one ball width displacement on a slip-skid indicator, unless one ball width displacement cannot be obtained with full rudder, in which case the demonstration must be with full rudder applied.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/23.221

taildraggernut 12-07-2012 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485911)
Trolling??

explain?

Robo. 12-07-2012 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485913)
Spin resistant is not the same as unspinnable.

Spin resistant is a specific term in aeronautical engineering. The problem is not my language but the fact it is being interpretated without the realization it is a defined measured condition.

Ok, but you didn't use the term spin resistant in your post (No 61 for instance.) :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485572)
Again, they act like training wheels on a bicycle. In otherwords, it should be EXTREMELY difficult to spin the aircraft and very easy to recover.

The advantage of the slats is in preventing spins. Find a report on the spin characteristics of the Bf-109.

There is an engineering reason there is not one.

There were obviously quite a few 109 pilots who didn't know their aircraft was spin resistant and spun in making a piloting mistakes.

Crumpp 12-07-2012 02:45 PM

Quote:

There were obviously quite a few 109 pilots who didn't know their aircraft was spin resistant and spun in making a piloting mistakes.
Where is that proof and in comparison to what?

Quote:

No 61 for instance
Is absolutely true, did you read the spin testing by Mtt? Did you read the RAE evaluation on flying qualities?

What is the problem? Is something difficult to interpret?

Robo. 12-07-2012 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485920)
What is the problem?

That's what I am asking - what is the problem exactly with the 109 in game? How much different should it be? Which maneuveurs do you find difficult to complete and you spin. Which situations exactly make you spin your 109.

I agree to the characteristics posted by you or Kurfurst, the 109 should be stable and easy to fly in general, but you need to be in good control. Good 109 pilots in this sim only very rarely spin their ride, the not so good one do sometimes. It works pretty well. It is actually easy to fly if you know what you're doing, you won't spin her, simple as that.

Once the mistake is made (e.g too much foot in the wrong moment) the spin can be violent (but not always) and it's difficult to recover unles you're in good control of your 109. If you are you, won't spin her to start with. Maybe it's really the matter of FF as I can 'feel' the a/c and the spin coming. I don't know... All I see in the game is experienced 109 pilots won't spin at all.

To me it seems you were saying the 109 would not spin even if the pilot made a mistake. I was not so sure about that. Of course I've read all the reports, no worries.

zipper 12-08-2012 01:09 AM

I'll just jump in here and say stalls for all aircraft are easily the least realistic part of the game in that they always drop instantly into a spin, and the subsequent spin is almost always unrealistically difficult to recover from. This includes the P-39. With effort one might stop the spin from going too far but this is hardly realistic. Individual stall/spin characteristics are also missing.

Crumpp 12-08-2012 01:46 AM

Quote:

To me it seems you were saying the 109 would not spin even if the pilot made a mistake.
I think you are just trolling.

Honestly, slats are an anti spin device.

So what do you think an airplane equipped with an anti-spin device would require good flying to prevent a spin?

Or do you think the training wheels would work to keep the bicycle upright so it does not tip over and fall?

:rolleyes:

Robo. 12-08-2012 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485990)
I think you are just trolling.

Honestly, slats are an anti spin device.

So what do you think an airplane equipped with an anti-spin device would require good flying to prevent a spin?

Or do you think the training wheels would work to keep the bicycle upright so it does not tip over and fall?

:rolleyes:

I am not sure what you mean with me 'trolling' - could you please describe maneuveurs you do in the Bf 109 that you find it difficult not to spin her?

I completely understand what you're saying and I know what the slats do. The plane would still spin if you make a piloting mistake though - and that's what I see most of the time online - 109 suddenly turning too tight (attacking or breaking) and spinning in. 109 climbing, realising there is a threat behind them and pulling hard a lot and too quickly - spin. Sometimes you can tell he's looking back at you and makes a mistake with the rudder. Or 109 attacking at high speed, I break hard, he tries to get guns on me with plenty of rudder = flips wing. Beautiful high speed stall, but if he's good he regains control very quickly, although that piloting error will cost him lots of E.

I fly the 109 in this sim very often and I honestly don't find it being 'unforgoving' or going into 'violent spin' without warning as some say. I wonder why is that, my guess would be FF joystick or simply the fact I am flying her smoothly. There is lots of warning - FF, buffeting acompanied with specific sound. If someone pulls the stick like it's a toilet plunger of course he will spin her.

So if you could describe maneuveurs where the 109 spins while it shouldn't that would be great. I am not 'trolling', I am simply very interested.

Al Schlageter 12-08-2012 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485990)
do you think the training wheels would work to keep the bicycle upright so it does not tip over and fall?

:rolleyes:

Back in the day my brother had training wheels on his bicycle and he tipped it over and fell many times.

taildraggernut 12-08-2012 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crumpp (Post 485990)
I think you are just trolling.

Honestly, slats are an anti spin device.

So what do you think an airplane equipped with an anti-spin device would require good flying to prevent a spin?

Or do you think the training wheels would work to keep the bicycle upright so it does not tip over and fall?

:rolleyes:

I really can't believe you typed this publically, slats are NOT I repeat NOT anti spin devices, slats are not anti-anything devices, they simply allow you to hang on to laminar flow air at slightly higher angles of attack but if you exceed that angle a slatted wing is stalled just like any other and subject to the same pitfalls.

NZtyphoon 12-08-2012 11:10 AM

Image removed.

Please leave the thread if want to troll like that.


++Moderated++

Crumpp 12-08-2012 12:28 PM

Quote:

they simply allow you to hang on to laminar flow air
Experts....have fun

:rolleyes:


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