4.11 - Engine: Overheat!
 

How many posts about this new 4.11 'feature' do you think we will see?

Aviar

I'm curious as well. My bet is: much!

Many people will have their problems to change their behaviour, according to the new restrictions (and such is a sensitive heat management now).
But taking in account, that everyone else - even AI - is suffering from the same 'problem', it can open a completely new fighting experience.
Some advantages, that were back then in RL, are more pronaunced now in the game as well, i.e. the fine automatic installation in german fighters called "Kommandogerät", which can help to prevent overrev and overheat to some degree.

My own main problem is, that I now need to look for a solution, how I can set prop pitch to a easy key or maybe joystick slider, as it has become so much more important.

EDIT: I like, that I have to care more for the plane now, than just staring through my gunsight reticle only.

Umm my spit fire is not supposed to over heat at 80c oil temps. Can not see any thing indicating the reason for overheat at 80c?
I see weps FM changes.
also noticed when flaps come down there is more of an actual bump
in the nose rises like in an actual plane.
I love the engine responses in the dials reflected now. Good job.

never mind rtfm1
 

The only problem I have with this is that the FM's on some planes are not modeled for pitch prop control i.e the Spit with a prop pitch control it doesn't work. i.e the Spit FVb. which has an adjustable prop pitch doesn't work.

Improved radiator & overheat modeling
4.11 introduces a more detailed and more accurate radiator model. It is different from the
previous model in many ways, the main differences being:
• radiator settings now have an impact on both water/cylinder and oil temperature
• outside temperature now has an impact on oil temperatures
• engine rpm has a bigger impact
• impact of WEP is dependent on extra power generated
• mixture setting has an impact
• the density of the air has an impact
• aircraft speed has a bigger impact
• there is no longer a fixed period after which damage occurs in case of overheat
• introducing a random chance for damage depending on how strongly the engine
overheats
• type of damage is depending on if it is water/cylinder or oil overheating
You will generally find that the planes overheat a lot more, in particular if you are not on a cold
map in fast level flight. As a guideline, on hotter maps you can expect fighters to be able to
6 / 21
sustain about 70% power at 70% pitch without overheating radiators closed, for bombers it is
somewhat more. The values in many cases are reasonably close to real life maximum
continuous settings (please don't go by cockpit gauges, they aren't always accurate).
If you start a low speed full power dogfight with a closed radiator, you can expect the engine
to overheat rapidly and to get damaged quickly. War emergency power settings should
therefore only be used in an emergency, otherwise your plane might get destroyed without
your enemy even firing a shot.
To keep engine temperatures low, remember:
• use low rpm (reduce pitch), in particular oil temperature are sensitive towards rpm
• use low throttle settings (and avoid WEP)
• open the radiator
• fly faster (don't climb at too low speeds)
• use an as rich mixture as possible

Check your keys! All Spitfires have a manually prop pitch. From MK.VIII upward they also have additional auto prop pitch.

EDIT: And don't go for the gauges. They are not completely reliable. Also they maybe show radiator exit temp.

So far I've been flying the Russian and German aircraft. I've historically used just the instruments (HUD Messages OFF) and with the new patch, have been flying like crazy with high and full throttle and prop positions, and with the required radiator opening when the needles get just a bit too high. Mindful application of RPMs and Radiator settings at high and full throttle seem to manage things. Using a relatively high mixture - per given altitude - helps keep things cool, too, though you lose a bit of power. Unless I'm being careless or deliberately trying to fry the engine, I've found no ill effects so far.

With the new patch, one can fly and manage the engine much more realistically using the instruments now than in previous versions of the sim. That, IMHO, is huge, considering the history of this sim with it's comically blatant disregard of engine instrument indications.

Maybe the HUD messages are a bit conservative now?

First, Thanks for patch. But I'm wondering from reading so far.

An oil temp at 80 degrees celsius is not an overheat condition. More like the upper bound of a normal operating condition. You should be able to maintain that indefinitely. When you get to say 90C degree, there are usually operating limits that kick in, like 1 hour...etc. Then there are limits on cylinder head (e.g., temp 260C for minutes when you go balls out) were the limit is only like 5 minutes.

There's plenty to take into account given the limitations of the game. Different engine and rad designs, water cooled verses air cooled. Air cooled engines are usually overbuilt to handle the added thermal stresses. I trust all these details were considered for each plane besides what I read in the 4.11 read me? In other words, I trust the temp model is still unique to the plane?

Consider, that most gauges show 'oil in' temperature... means, temperature of oil, that is already cooled down.

Without having tested 4.11 more than a few sorties so far, this "feature" or tweak is actually one of those I am looking forward to the most.

Even though I cannot say that I am very happy about CLoD's current "situation", the importance of handling water/oil temperatures, RPM etc is somwthing I really appreciate.. I am glad TD have focused on making engine management more complex and important.

Looking forward to investigate further...

ok. 'overheat message' must be tagged to the 'oil-out'. so I suppose you could have oil out at 105C -110C, put the plane into a dive with rads open and get oil in at 80C.

Regarding Overheat and Oil temps. Within IL2 the critical Oil temp wrt overheating is the Oil "OUT" temperature however the gauge is Oil "IN" temperature which is always cooler. As can be seen in the Merlin data below (Spit II) Oil out is on average 15-20C warmer than Oil in. These routines will be tweaked further.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e2...4/Img_2547.jpg

Great... I am very happy and excited for this direction...

.. this development of CEM means that by managing your engine effectively ( A MUST) and keeping a good temp/RPM etc on your engine, whilst your enemy does not... may actually lead to a big tactical advantage.... you might even catch a on the paper faster airplane because he has an overheated engine..or he has to be careful because he is on the verge on wrecking it.. (mismanaged it) This was true before but even more so now.
This means .. again.. that the PILOT is even more important than the plane than before... smart able pilots have the advantage.
thumbs up! No more pilots with cruising power 90% :D :)

PS thanx for the explanation with oil in/out.. makes sense..
Is there any documentation to see which planes measure oil in/out...? or is the "in" temperature more of a rule?

I dont mean the prop pitch doesnt work as in using it, it does'nt work like it should be modeled in the game. I lower to about 2600-2700 rpm my plane should not drop from 230 knts to 190 knts. I should be getting around 260 knts with the settings of say 80% prop pitch just like in CLOD.

I have not had a chance to DL yet but am curious if there is now an added ability to manipulate oil coolers separately from the radiators for applicable aircraft?

No

I am not sure if new heat modelling will make flying more difficult. I got impression that only stall fighting will be hurt, and high speed fighting will even benefit, because it seems that speed contributes more to cooling than previously.

for those wanting to see actual figures for oil temp in/out- can i suggest devicelink.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jn6ygq5jbb58tv3

this gives digital readouts of OTI and OTO (ON A SEPARATE COMPUTER;) )- and of course this only works offline:rolleyes:

more info on devicelink here
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php...s-thread/page5

Excessive over-heating has always been one of the weakest aspects of Il-2. 4.11 makes it much, much worse.

In one of my first tests I had the cowl flaps all the way open on the Ki84, at 66% throttle, in level flight, and the overheat message would not go away.

Pilots did not reduce power during normal operations to prevent the engine from immediately breaking; they did it to extend the life of the engine and reduce the frequency of overhauls.

I love the new AI, but this overheat business is such a step backward that I will probably stick with 4.10 for as long as possible.

How was your fuel mixture...?
Did you overheat the engine too much to start with ?
What were your engine revs ?

I also think the overheating is a bit too aggressive.

So far I've only tried Bf-109K-4C3. I made a duel quick mission with Yak-3P on Cremia. Upon spawning midair, I pushed forward the throttle to maximum 110% with MW50 enabled. After about 2 minutes into the flight I got an overheating message.

I had a feeling that the enabling of MW50 speeds up the overheating. But isn't MW50 supposed to cool down the engine instead?

During the dogfight, I had to keep the throttle down below 70% (MW50 is automatically disabled under 100% power) to keep the engine cool. However, with this setup, I would soon run out of energy and could only fly straight.

Edit: Sorry, I timed it. It was only 53 seconds into flight.

Guys, I seriously think you should consider that the threshold that triggers displaying the HUD Engine Overheat message is too conservative.

I fly by the engine gauges only and can push the aircraft harder now than I could in previous versions of the game. In all of the aircraft that I've flown so for in v4.11 the engine gauges show much more plausible indications, including in the LaGG-3 Series 4, I-16 Mk18 and Mk24, I-153, Bf-109s E through G2, P-40 B and C, F3F-3 and -4, and the F4-U. Using the gauges you can now monitor engine condition more reliably than you could in past versions of the game.

That's true, the overheat message comes on as soon as there is a chance to damage the engine. A little bit of overheat however has a very small chance to damage the engine at all.

If you fly full power / max. pitch with radiator open in high speed level flight, you can probably fly for a long time before anything happens.

You shouldn't sit on the runway having the engine maxed out, it's going to blow fairly quickly.

Yes, the "Engine overheat" message should not let you panic imidiatly. It just should let your start to think about temperature. If you learn to handle the tolerances, then you will be able to use a small advantage in combat. ;-)

However - no risk no fun. :-D

Update: With the same setup, the time at which the overheating message pops up for La-7 3XB-20 and P-51D-20NA is 1 min 34 seconds and 1 min 18 seconds.

But please bear in mind that Bf-109 and P-51 have automatic radiators enabled while the radiator of La-7 is set to closed by default.

Will do more test and report back.

you can all ways turn the over-heating off :-|

Jermin. Some advice. I wouldn't waste your time stop watching how long it takes to overheat each plane in the game. First off...it will be different every map and every sortie! It's no longer as static...more dynamic based on how you fly and the map.

Also, FW190 was known to have overheating issues. That's why they designed special cowling. So 190, you may need to leave rads open more so than others...but it holds it's energy well even with open rad. Go by the ata's.

Unfortunately, this is not true. The overheat time for a specific plane is constant regardless of sorties. It is comparable between different planes.

Thanks for your advice. But I was referring to Bf-109s.

ok 109. my mistake.

Comparing water cooled inline engine planes to air cooled radial engines all different planes with different designs and cooling efficiencies modeled. It was already pointed out in this thread that oil temp is function of "oil in" and "oil out" and those functions are all dependent on map pressure, rpms, fuel mixtures, airspeeds and radiator/cowling positions (open, partially opened or closed) and for water cooled engines would be dependent on efficiency of the in/out of the water temps (so if you take a bullet damage there you should be more prone to overheat!) and air-cooled on the heat exchangers/oil sump/pump and don't forget the ambient temp of the map. If your able to capture all those dynamic functions in a stop watch run and draw a reasonable conclusion???:confused:

I don't want to come off as self-promoting, but I posted this in another thread and thought it would be worthwhile to post here, too:

"Generally speaking, to get the most performance out of any engine in the sim for the longest practical time, you want to set a high manifold pressure, combined with a moderately reduced RPM, and as high a mixture as practical for a given altitude. Also, you may want to open the radiator one or two steps. Moreover, you want to fly in a manner that keeps your speed as high as possible - the more air that is blasting into the radiator for liquid-cooled engines, and through the cylinder head fins for air cooled engines, the cooler your engine will run. Again, this is a general rule of thumb for managing engines during combat in the game.

Can't stress this enough, but I highly recommend turning off HUD messages, and get used to reading the gauges to monitor the engine. With v4.11 you can do that with confidence now that the gauges show what they should show. I've said it many times and I'll say it again: the triggering of the ENGINE OVERHEAT message is way too conservative. I've long flown without HUD messages and have paid close attention to the gauges, and have gotten good performance out of the engines on warm and cold maps. Once I turned on HUD messages however, I found that the ENGINE OVERHEAT message came on far sooner than I would have otherwise started worrying about the condition of the engine. I just turned it off again and haven't used it since. If I used the ENGINE OVERHEAT message as a guide to start trimming back on engine settings, I would never get any decent performance out of the machine.

Learn to use the gauges, throttle, RPMs, manifold pressure, and radiator; not be a slave to the OVERHEAT message; practice consistently, and I promise you will get more performance out of your plane."

qft!

How does one "...set a high manifold pressure..."...?

Aviar

Set it to maintain your desired rpm and maybe a little more, not too much or you just generate heat.

With the throttle. How you use the throttle determines how much air (hence, oxygen) goes into the combustion chamber with the fuel and is ignited.

On an aircraft with a constant speed prop, you set the rpm with the prop control, and the engine manifold pressure with the throttle.

To get a high manifold pressure you would set a low RPM with a large throttle opening.

Within limits lest you get detonation :)

A good read if you want to know more about engine management, Manifold pressure etc:
http://www.advancedpilot.com/downloads/prep.pdf

This is true, but not in the sim.

Just curious, what about clod?

that's why i said generate heat. i think they modeled it as a heat penalty.

Some very good info here. Thanks for posting!

Radiator temperature limits in game.
 

Mr Treetop64, is there any info about the radiator operations in the game? I mean, temperature limits, minimum, maximum, and for how long permitions, drags, speed limits in open(if any) etc?
I think we have some info about the engine RPM`s, not sure, (best cruise, best economy, best climb, max RPM...) But we dont have any info on the radiator operations. Do you know were i can get some? (not for real wwII aircraft, because i dont fly them, but for the 4.11 version planes. (if they are equal to real life wwII planes, better, we can extract from more sources... :)
If we should go for the gauges as you said (i agree) we must know limits.

Hope anyone can help, and on RPM´s also. Thanks.

Not sure, but the best way to start getting this sort of info is to find out what kind of engine a particular aircraft type has and do a google search on operating limits for that engine, or you can do a search on FAA Type Certificate Data Sheets. You may have to hunt around a bit on the FAA website, and I doubt if they have anything about old Klimovs or something equally esoteric, but but they do have tons of good information on many engines.

It helps to just get very proficient in two or three types of aircraft in the game, fly in them a lot, and just getting a feel for what works best. Just get in, fly her hard, and see what she can take - you're playing the role of test pilot. That's what I did and it worked.

As for radiator openings, in previous versions of the game you had to crank open the radiators all the way if you wanted to run hard for long periods, at the expense of creating more drag. Now in v4.11 that's not necessary any more. For example, in the LaGG-3 Series 4 I can firewall the throttle, set RPMs at 2300 (that will vary on it's own by a couple hundred RPM as I climb and dive. Usually when I'm making a sustained climb I'll manually adjust the RPM to 2500, then set it back to 2300 again when I level off), and adjust the mixture and supercharger as necessary per altitude. I only have to open the radiator two or three steps, and I can reliably run like that until the tanks are dry (or until I'm wounded and running home like a crying baby, or shot down, which are likely outcomes if flying the early LaGGs against an aggressive and competent foe!).

Hello!

We waited it so long and 4.11 released!

My favorite aircraft is Spitfire. I'm also trying to fly in ultra-hard realism with turned off HUD information like "Player killed", "Out of ammo", "Engine overheat!" (NoHudLog=1). In 4.10.1 and previous versions overheat on Spitfire engine started at 97-98 OIL TEMP gauge. And I even didn't understand for what there is RAD TEMP gauge - overheat started exactly at 97-98 OIL.

In 4.11 everything became harder. I can't understand when overheat starts. Sometimes it begins at one temp., and sometimes at another one. As I understand, warning sign "Overheat!" means that starts countdown to engine wreck that set random. How can I detect overheat without HUD? What algorythm of overheat on Spitfire?

Kos Aim to keep Oil temp < 90deg C. Use lower RPM you can fly on most maps in the MKIX series +12/2800RPM all day without fear of any overheat.

Thanks! Спасибо! I flew Spitfire today with "Pilot's Notes for Spitfire MkV". Climbing at regament data (Boost, RPM) was exelent. I reached 10.000m without overheat. But combat mode data is impossible to reach. Overheat starts at 80-90 OIL TEMP, and 70-100 RAD TEMP (in last case is very difficult to detect overheat because arrow moves very slow). Combat mode (3000 RPM + Max Boost) results overheat in ~2,5min. What about this?

As stated elsewhere, the 'Overheat' message doesn't necessarly mean instant damage. If the 'rate of overheat' is low, it is possible to fly for a long time without damage. Another 2,5min without damage to reach the allowed 5min, is very easily possible. But if you instead recieve a damage after 2,5min, then something is wrong.

Given that some engines produced by the USSR and other countries were license-built versions of better known engines, the FAA info might still be helpful. For example, the Klimov M-103 was a license-built version of the Hispano-Suiza 12Ybrs.

I did some tests.
On the runway, + chocks + radiator closed :twisted:
The put the engine at full power + Boost :twisted:

Not is a rigorous test .

4.10.1
In general, for all aircraft, something like this.

2 to 3 minutes and you see - Engine overheat
6 to 9 minutes your engine are dead.


4.11
In general, for all aircraft, something like this.

50 seconds to 1 minute 20 s , and you see - Engine overheat
1 minute 20 s to 2 minutes 40 s you engine are dead.


" Engine dead "=
Something like this.


BF 109 engine Stops

FW 190 engine go to 1500 RPM and ..and down to 0

La 5 engine Stops

P51 engine on fire ... I be wonded

Spite Fire IXe , RPM variations exist but keep in 2900 - 3000
Then then exploded and I'm dead.

I love having to manage the engine closely and often, it is a great feather in the sims cap.

It is not a new one though, does anyone else remember that in an early patch of FB the 109E was given manual pitch only and it had to be constantly manipulated during a dogfight?

Those who have flown the Russian aircraft in this sim for years always had to deal with mixture and switching supercharger speeds. I remember many dogfights vs. Yaks in years past and watching them go rich, smoke black and lose power at the top of a loop when inexperience pilots did not keep on top of their game.

For many years I flew the FW190A and D models mostly on 0% pitch, and just switched to auto-pitch when a fight came along, they ran cool and economically that way, and likewise the prop pitch on many allied aircraft could be set to keep them cooler, it was just not as realistic or pronounced as it is now.

Juggling radiator, prop pitch, mixture and superchargers has always been the job of the hard-settings pilot in IL2.....

I'm really enjoying the new engine overheat.

That and the new AI are the 2 most game changing things to have come to il2 for an age, and both most welcome.

In 4.10.1

I fly FW 190A 20% pich Radiator closed


I fly FW 190D 0% pich Radiator closed 3000 RPM.

Only for climb pitch auto,

+1

:)