I-153: cheap or not?
 

The problem isn't that it's hard to beat or anything, it's just that the tactics required make for a very boring game. And people just want to play their standard-issue descending furball, and the 153 is a very cheap way of exploiting that play style.

I don't mind it much in Realistic or Sim, it's way too slow and you'll only get a lot of kills if people try to outturn you, which they usually find out is useless and stop doing after 1 or 2 tries.
Heard it's overpowered in Arcade though.

agreed i find it is and i'm arcade player

I stopped flying them very early on because it felt like cheating (Arcade)

I don't really have a problem with them now. Just accelerate away turn around wait for them to start climbing to do one of those ridiculous turns, and then try and cut them in half with a quick pass... Very satisfying when it works :)

Personally I have more of a problem with IL's in TB's and DF's. I make a point of killing them first..

Bi-planes are for girls.

Bi-planes armed with rockets that fly like they aren't?

Even girls have more pride than that.

The I-153 looks so great in dogfight because players have to engage to score. It's possible to bnz them without being shot at (much), but the graphics are a bit too limited for them to be visible at a far enough distance.

If the target camera worked in aviation mode, it would be easier to kill them.

One five what?
Sorry been a long time since I saw one of those.
Nobody on my friends list stoops so low! :grin:

Yeah what sucks is you when you tryand BnZ against them and get a faceful of rockets. Congrats, that's some mad skills there:rolleyes:

Those things are so easy to beat that they do not bother me. Simple rule.... DON"T TURN WITH THEM. Fly right by and go into a shallow climb; if they try and follow they make themselves easy meat for your team. If no one picks up on it hold your climb, get some distance and loop back in for a quick pass. If you really can't get away from them dive. A fat kid on a 10 speed weighs more than that thing. But that's just me... I prefer BnZ so they don't bother me.

in arcade its very cheap
if not its fine i think just try to make the enemy push down on the stick a few times the engine behaves like the i 16

I disagree with all these negative comments. I use them, never in a dogfight of any kind though, but they are decent planes but very easy to kill. Its not fair to say users of them are cheating, their speed and weakness definatly evens the playing field.
Just in RL you wouldnt want to engage in a turning-game with one, so dont do it; use different tactics.

but that's the whole point, online dogfight isn't a real-life situation. In real life you don't have the objective of competing with several other planes to shoot down as many i-153's as possible in 20 minutes. In real life you just ignore them and fly away because they're tactically useless. Same with the I-16. The Stalingrad campain mission where you have to fight bf109's and then he-111's with an I-16 is a great example of how weak a slow fighter really is.

In dogfight mode, the player who stays in the furball will invariably rack up more kills over time, compared to the boom and zoomer, simply because they get more opportunities to shoot. They get more deaths too, but that doesn't stop them from winning the round and getting the points.

I'm not saying they are cheating, I'm saying they are cheap. The weaknesses you describe don't apply to 99.5% of online games, because the tendancy there is for everyone to engage in a giant turning battle furball. So the I-153 pilot sits in the middle, merrily turning on a dime, picking people left, right and centre and too maneouverable to be killed by someone trying a turning attack.

As I said in the OP - the tactics to beat them are a no-brainer, but make for a very boring game. They are also not compatible with the above gameplay that online games turn into. You are going to lose if everyone is turn-fighting while you are making strafing passes. The guy in the 153 can kill 2 or 3 turning planes while you are flying away and turning around for another pass.

And the other problem with this plane, unlike jets, is that you cannot set up a game to prohibit them.

if u speak to say it :please stop to play online!!!...and play with a playmobils ,u must learn to respect people....

I think you may be compensating.

I remember when I used the 153 I was getting 20 odd kills easy. One match I got 31, after which I decided to never use it again.
The problem with it is it requires so little skill to keep on an oponent. I also found the cannon fire strange. After a couple of kills the cannons appear to bug and get a sweet spot kill nearly every turn. It seemed so much like a bug that I fealt bad shooting people down with it.
As for dealing with it, yeah it's pretty straightforward but it knocks the fun out of a match

wookie has it down to a tee with his post, the 153 is just too easy: which is why people call it a noob plane, nobodys calling their pilots noobs. It just makes me sad to see quality pilots waste their time and play in a completley inflexible manor.

*Cheering and cries of joy begin, as Soviet Ace steps into the thread to give his two cents* :P

I can see what your all saying, that the I-153 has an advantage over turning with other planes, but what you have to understand. Is that ANY mono-plane, that would try and turn with a bi-plane would fail miserably in a turning fight. The reason why, is because the bi-plane is slower and since it's slower can turn faster. If they had put a Italian Fiat CR42, into the game or even a British Gloster Gladiator; then the I-153 would have less of an advantage since both of those planes are bi-planes, and can equally turn with an I-153 depending on the situation and place.

Now for the game, the I-153 is not cheating or cheap in anyway. I agree, that a lot of noobs fly it; which should be actually the complete opposite. Most noobs should be getting shot down and ruined because the I-153 and I-16 were both unstable at times, and many new pilots flying them died. It was the veterans and pro's who flew; which accomplished the scores that many of them had.

Anyway, we all know that the Russian planes (all of them) seem to have an advantage, over all the other planes in the game. So there's really no point in complaining about whether the I-153 is cheating or cheap because it's just how they modeled it.

It really doesn't matter, if the I-153 Chaika or the other two bi-planes I mentioned before have an advantage over the other planes; which in real life they would have because any bi-plane can out turn a mono-plane. The point is, if your flying an I-153 or someone else is flying it. Just BnZ the damn thing. It may not be as fun, but it is YOUR (and their) fault for trying to turn and get into it's turning radius. Don't blame the plane, just because you've been smart or dumb enough to take advantage of 1-2 tactics, the I-153 has over all the others. (The second advantage, would be rolling :D)

I think we should make it clear what difficulty everyone is playing: if a 153 is top-scorer in a match on Realistic or Sim (except maybe in DM) you're most likely to blame yourself, not the 153 pilot. It's tough to get kills with it if everyone just flies away, which usually happens soon enough.
Again, I heard it's ridiculous in Arcade, but I have no first-hand experience.

Errr...yes. OK.

It turns faster because it has 2 sets of wings (hence the name bi[nary]-plane) which gives it (almost) double lift. So when it puts it's wingtip to Earth all that lift converts to turning ability.

You're missing the point - we all know how to defeat it. But it's boring. And it's rare that the majority of players will adopt an anti-153 style and will instead ignore it and go about their turning fights. Which means the 153 just picks people off. Hence, cheap.

Just lure them up above 15,000 Feet and, just like the I-16, they have problems flying and maneuvering at higher altitudes.

I lured an I-153 up to above 20,000 Feet with an Fw-190 A5, in arcade, continued climbing to 42,000 Feet, pulled a stall turn and dove down at speed from above. By now he was at around 22,000 Feet, airspeed 87 MPH in level flight as a sitting duck. Death was quick.....

It is only because players tend to dogfight next to the ground, where the 1930's fighters have a clear advantage and the wartime fighters don't, that helps them along. Keeping the fight up above 6,000 Feet, where there is plenty of sky to maneuver in, lets the faster aircraft exploit their superiority.

Basically, just go with the advice that "Fllying Tigers" mercenary P-40 C pilots were given when flying against slower but more agile Japanese Ki-27 "Nate" fixed undercarriage fighters..... "Don't get into a turning battle with them!!"

Yes, I know having two sets of wings, also gives it a better advantage as well, but speed is not everything. So actually, if you tried turning an I-153 Chaika with an old WW1 Fokker DVII or maybe even a Sopwith of some kind, the Fokker or Sopwith would outturn the Chaika because it's speed and radius of turn.

And I think your problem isn't exactly with the I-153, but how to deal with it. I know BnZ isn't fun, and that's why I stick with either the Yak's, La's, Polikarpov's, and other low altitude planes. Because TnB is what I like best.

And like I already said, it's not your fault or their's if your or them are flying the I-153, and get so many kills because your enemy isn't smart enough to realize that the I-153 has a HUGE advantage in turning. And once again, if your dumb enough to try and turn with a I-153 (Sim or Realistic) then you deserve to be shot down because you tried turning with it, and knew the outcome would be fatal for you.

If you really don't like dealing with the I-153, then just do some BnZ passes; or just completely IGNORE it entirely. The player flying it, will probably just give up trying to chase after once he realizes he cant. It's not hard to understand, that if your not flying the I-153 Chaika, you have every advantage except roll and turning. If Erick Hartmann can get 352 kills, using BnZ; then I'm sure it wasn't that boring. And if it is boring for you, then just go after the other planes. Common sense is something important when flying.

Remember, "Beware of the Hun in the Sun." :D

Bingo, that's exactly it. You get one on your tail in team battle, shoot up to altitude and get set to dive on it, all the while you see "john doe killed joe bloggs" at the bottom of the screen as the 153 player picks off your team. You get back into the fight, get a few shots at him before he realizes you are behind him again. He gets on your tail....repeat ad nauseum

Of course you can bnz a biplane and an I-16 too... that's why they had to be replaced with faster planes.

The issue is that in DOGFIGHT mode, they end up with an unfair advantage, because

) it takes longer for bnz kills to add up than kills for whoever happens to be behind the i-153 behind its target.

) the polikarpov's don't blow up very often, they get winged and then they crash for no credit.

I just finished a match against an I-16 that crashed 6 times, then got credit for a kill for crashing into me, and won the match. It didn't hit me with one gunshot, and I died only the one time it crashed into me. It's hard to get credit for killing those things.

:D

Firstly i'm talking purely about arcade here so take that into consideration. The i153 is too fast in a climb which i think is wrong, It has the best turns in arcade no stalls(Correct). Perhaps we're missing the point here..... yes you and i can beat an i 153 with tactics and not in a turn (though depending on the skill of the pilot it is entirely possible to out turn them). When you do beat them it can be quite exhilerating i remember a match in arcade where i, coordinator and Iamjack faced off against olife firepilot and another reasonable 153 pilot and beat them resoundingly I had an adrenaline buzz the entire match.
Surely there should be a plane it's equal.... another biplane. I don't know any makes other than say a fairy swordfish or glouchester gladiatior but i'm sure there more than just an i153. that would make a great addition to this game. If you could set the start altitude of a online game like you can in training mode than would also help in alleviating the reputation of the I153 in arcade.

I don't fly arcade so they have never really been an issue. I can see why some would have a problem with them specially in arcade. I also usually don't play strait dogfight so i can usually call on a buddy to clear my tail.

The games I play we usually team up against them with drag and bag tactics. Usually cuts them to pieces. One guy goes into a shallow climb...if the bi-plane follows the other swoops in for the quick kill. Alt makes no difference.

I was in a game a few weeks ago and me and another player tore these two guys who were flying them apart. But that was realistic. It got so bad they wouldn't even come up and fight us. (we were sitting at 6,000 ft just waiting for one to climb up and pick a target while the other one of us would dive on the climber)

I can't help but feel that looking for balance in a game mode with supersonic Spitfires is somewhat wishful thinking.

Everybody on this thread is right. Now what? I need 5 wins to unlock its weapons for the trophy. So do you guys. That's all. Everytime I try to fly it, the lobby erupts. Last night the host, an excellent player, quit in the middle of the match. He was losing and I never even took a shot at him! I've never won a match with it. I can't shoot! I'll get my wins in strike (maybe). I just leave the thing alone because of the controversy. Sometimes I tire of this kind of thing. It's just a game! It's things like this that make me glad we can't boot out players or blacklist players from the lobby. What a mess that would be!

When you get the bnz kill, it counts for one kill, meanwhile others who stay in the furball get 2 or 3. Seeing "mission failed" gets old.

If I had heat-seeking cannon rounds that could make sure to hit the engine, I'd use them. Hitting the engine is a low-percentage shot compared to hitting the plane in general. With other planes, hitting the plane in general a few times is likely to get a kill credit. But hit a Polikarpov once or twice, if it's not a lucky engine hit it will begin a long journey to the deck and no credit, cause there's not enough hits.

In one-on-one dogfights, of course I bnz them. I don't fly anywhere near them. I fly up to 5000 meters and laugh at them.

Well for one, both the I-153 and I-16, are known in real life for being fidgety about shots. But you can't plane the plane, as it's well known the problem with online and getting kills that don't count; which should. So it's not the I-153 or I-16s problem, that they get hit and can't fly anymore.

Second, I'm not saying your going to get an engine kill every time you BnZ the little bastards, but if your main focus while attacking one is the engine; your going to have a better chance depending on how the I-153 pilot is acting. If it's sim, it's more than likely he'll be flying in a straight line heading to the little furball up ahead.

whether it's the plane's fault or the game's fault, until the scoring is fixed, dogfight mode's mechanics is biased in favor of i-153. I'm sure the i-153 is a fine little biplane and served родина well, but if and until a patch fixes things, I still think it's a nuisance in bop dogfights.

I didn't say anything about speed, I said lift. The two things are not the same, although one is a function of the other. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you understand the physics of a wing, but your paragraph makes me think maybe not.

And I don't care about how it compares to other real world bi-planes. We're talking about the game, and specifically online battles.

Then you think wrong. As I've stated, dealing with them is a no-brainer. But all the counter-arguments in this thread seem to assume a one on one battle. That is no problem - I will eat them up and spit out the tail fin. My issue is with a big online dogfight, where the majority of people are in spits, 109s or whatever, and one or two guys will exploit the cheapness of the 153 (in this situation) to rack up kills.

Well, 153 pilots don't have the plane forced on them, so of course it's their fault they're flying one. And they fly one because they know they can get a lot of cheap kills, exactly because the majority of players will not implement counter-153 tactics and will instead just go about their usual turning battles.

I do ignore them for the most part and that is when they are a nuisance. The roll and turning advantage are exactly what makes them so cheap because of the nature of online battles.

I think the problem is you are coming at this from a real world view point, and I am coming at it purely from the view point of the game. Unless Erick Hartmann plays on a console with a controller, I don't care about him.

And please stop being so patronising.

Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed.
Low speed = Low turn radius, and high rate of turn. The extra lift provided by the bi-wings only means it can maintain a way lower airspeed, thus a lower turn radius and high rate of turn.

I'm sorry, but that's not true. How well can you turn when your elevators have been shot out?

Lift is only lift when you are flying with level wing tips. As soon as you roll your plane onto it's side, that lift then becomes turn. Which is why you lose altitude if your wings are exactly perpendicular to the ground.

Lift and turn are relative to the ground, not the plane. But the force resulting from the shape of the wing is relative to the orientation of the plane. So as you change the plane's orientation, you alter the effect of the wing relative to the Earth. What you say would be true if you use the rudder to turn. But you don't. You roll the plane onto it's side then use the elevator to turn.

Again, I'm not going to go into the physics of a wing because you can google it if you don't already know, but the upward force on a wing (i.e. lift on a level plane) is a function of it's forward speed (and curvature of the top surface).

...and angle of attack... ;)

The top and bottom of this is an 153 in a team battle match is like playing a game of football and someones dog runs on the pitch biting the ball. Its anoying as f**k
Yeah you can continue playing and try to ignore it but sooner or later you will get an urge to kick it into next week

ok the amount you can turn a plane depends on how much pressure is being generated by the elivators the more pressure they create without stalling the tighter the turn

PMSL awesome...

I could have saved myself a metric-fk tonne of typing if it had occured to me to sum it up so eloquently and succinctly. WP :) Don't forget that the dog will also probably end up scoring the most goals too lol.


EDIT: probably a good job we moved this out of shadowcorp's thread eh? Else he'd be having kittens :D

I'm not trying to patronize you, just telling you that your complaining about a plane which in REAL LIFE had this advantage over all other planes of the time, and I think that since it's the ONLY advantage this plane has, it's fine they exploit it. If they're dumb, then they're going to chase you but learn pretty quickly that they can't. And also, they had weaker guns than the other planes so their damage isn't as great because of the increased armor on the later planes. I mean do you really think, that fighter pilots back in WW2 actually didn't use their planes advantages over their opponent? That's just what you have to do with the I-153 and going against it.

Now, Seraph is correct. If you are going at 230mph in some plane, and you try and turn with a plane which is just going 150mph. Then the plane going 150mph is going to have the turning advantage because of it's slower speed. This doesn't just have to do with the I-153, but the I-16 as well. Try it sometime, fly against a I-16 and fly something like a Spitfire both planes must be at 100% throttle. Then you'll see which plane out turns the other. Turning radius has NOTHING to do with lift. Speed does because you need a certain amount of speed going over the wings (ie the amount of air being brought a crossed) so your plane doesn't stall and drop out of the air into some spin. The reason the I-153 has a better chance of staying in the air is because of its amount of wings; and the little air needed to actually keep it in the air unlike mono-planes which only have two wings, and stall much more than any biplane would.

Dude, please stop citing real world examples. I appreciate your knowledge on the subject is vast, and I wouldn't dare compete with you on that playing field. But this discussion is about how the 153 fits in within the scope of online games, and not how it compares with other bi-planes of the era, tactics emplyed in it's use or how real pilots did with it. I know BoP is as realistic as we can get, but an online game is very, very, very different to an actual dogfight where you can lose your life.

Seraph stated "Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed." which is wrong. A plane's lift and turn rate are one in the same thing applied to different spatial axis. "Lift" is simply opposing gravity. If you take that force and apply it perpendicular to gravity it becomes turn (in conjunction with another forward velocity component).

Yes, I know a slow moving thing can turn tighter than a fast moving thing. That is obvious if you try and walk around a corner and then run around it. The forward component of the velocity is much greater, therefore a much greater centri-petal acceleration is required to match the turn of a slower object. And I'm sure we all know that you need a calender to time how long it takes to do a 180 in a jet.

But if you're trying to tell me that the I-153 can turn tightly because it's engine doesn't pull it forwards fast, and not because it has nearly double the upward (relative to the plane) force of a mono-plane, you're wrong.

If that were the case, the tight turning circle could be countered by simply dropping your throttle to match, and it would be a non-issue.

Right, speed matters but in the sense of lift as a function of speed, because how fast you're going affects the amount of lift. Biplanes can generate that upward force at much slower speeds. Other planes can fly that slow without stalling, but they won't turn as many degrees per second flying at minimum-radius speed. The biplane's full-g maneuver speed is most plane's flat-scissor speed.

IF you try to fight a biplane close up, the intelligent thing to do is rather than try to get an inside angle, to use lag pursuit, maneuvering outside its turns and rolling to stay out of its guns plane, until it either loses sight of you or overestimates your 3D turn rate and overshoots by turning too fast. Unfortunately, it takes a long time to do against a competent pilot, and often fails because it involves concentrating on evasion before attack.

I think the "they shall not pass" mission, sums up the polikarpov's usefulness as a defensive plane. Though it's I-16 in the mission, I-153 would have had similar performance in that situation, chasing bf-109's away, waiting for them to come back (and down from 3000m) and chasing them away again. Point defense. It did a great job for what it was faced with. But in the game, dogfight mode isn't really supposed to be about that. It would be more appropriate as a local air-superiority element in Strike mode.

They could make things more interesting by adding other biplanes, then people could have biplane battles. The Germans and British had plenty of biplanes too.

You know what would be a great new mode for IL-2: the one most air combat was centered around, escort/interception. One side has a bunch of bombers to protect, and the other side has to shoot down the bombers. For the p51's, fw190's and jets.

your missing the point i can get a spit to turn faster at higher speeds
the reason the i153 is so agile is because of its low speed as for the same angle at a lower speed you will turn quicker
however the main charaterisitic is the force the elivators make like f1 cars wings the higher the speed the more pressure they create to try and force the car in the ground the same applies to a plane but instead of forcing it in the ground they turn the plane the only limitation on agility is stalling when you turn therefore wings have a small roll but the main roll is the elivators
all that and im only 15 lol
ps if you dont agree say so but dont flame me

Turn Radius = (Velocity*Velocity)/(11.26 *Tan (bank Angle)) , velocity in Knots, answer in feet.

Rate of Turn = (1092.95*Tan(bank angle))/ Velocity , velocity in Knots, answer in degrees/second

Now the bank angle you can achieve while maintaining a certain speed and altitude does depend on lift, but the turn radius and rate of turn are not directly influenced by lift. You're talking about the horizontal component of lift in a turn, which is a part of the force turning the plane. This depends on the bank angle. A higher lift component means that you can maintain a higher bank angle, and thus get a lower TR and higher ROT.
Still, the main reason the I-153 turns so tightly it can maintain a high bank angle at a low speed, with help of the added lift.
So in conclusion, the general rule to aviation forces is: everything affects everything. In this case TR and ROT are so small/big due to the low airspeed, which is made possible by the increased lift.
I advise everyone who doesn't have a Master's degree in Aerodynamics to not get too involved in the turning fysics of BoP. All of the above can be applied to a non-accelerated turn. If there's any acceleration, in any direction, involved, it gets a lot more complicated, especially with the G-forces involved.

P.S. @ Haitch: Sorry, but you're wrong :P. The elevators are mainly to get into a turn/climb/etc, but are not the driving force behind it. The F1 car wings are, like the name says, more like wings. Again, it's tricky to get into the fysics of elevators, mainly because they're there to make accelerations, which are hard to work with.

i want one lol

I'm content with the basics I know.. too much theory there :P.

my other theory was that it was the drag created by the elivators like if you run a car and break one side only it will turn. i will leave this thread now its too much of an argument
sorry for double post i relised i wanted to say this after i posted last message.

These equations must apply to a specific plane, rather than general equations. Hence the constants, which are probably the result of wing equations for this specific plane. Otherwise, you mean to tell me that a plane's wingspan and surface area have no effect on it's ability to turn?

LOL thank you. You just disproved your statement ("Actually.. both turn radius and rate of turn have nothing to do with lift, but a lot with speed."), and reinforced my argument that the 153 can turn tighter because it has more lift due to having 2 wings instead of 1.


EDIT: thus, making it a cheap plane to whore in online matches. I rest my case :)

Agreed, that statement was incorrect in retrospect. Again, the general rule to aviation forces is: everything affects everything. Conclusion: you, Soviet and me were all right: you need low speed for the best turn, and high lift to maintain it.

P.S.: The formula goes for every plane, you'll just have to check if the airspeed and bank angle used can actually be maintained in a constant non-accelerated flight. E.g. you can't say 'A Spitfire has a turn radius of 14 ft if you fill in v = 30kt and bank angle = 80 degrees', because the Spit can't fly 30 kts with a bank angle of 80 degrees while maintaining altitude and a coordinated turn.
The constant was for conversion so the answers would be in knots and feet.

Has anyone mentioned forcing them into a Negative G dive?

Despite the speed of the plane and its two sets of wings, my biggest issue with the I153 is its guns. I cant remember if the plane has 2 or 3 guns on it, but they seem to be the best set of guns in the air. I've shot up several planes for several minutes with my P47(8x50 cals, but you guys know that). But the first time I flew against a I153 I was destroyed with just a burst of its guns. The cannons somehow find the worst possible spot in your engine and send bullets flying. I couldn't believe it so I kept trying to fight with the guy (I was in the 109G-2 by now) and he would kill me on on head on passes, deflection shots, anything. And I don't mind being shot down, but even with a hurricane on my tail I can last for a few seconds and try to get away, the I153 seemed to blow my engine on the first burst every freakin time. I started to target him specifically since he was tearing up my team, but I would start shooting from far behind to make him start to maneuver, then I'd rip off those wings with my cannons with the deflection shot. So yea in my opinion the I153 is pretty cheap, but lets be honest, a lot of the Russian planes are strangely strong compared to the rest.

My best way to shoot down an I153? get him as he's preoccupied with shooting down your teammate

That's what I said. Monoplanes can't do that cause their corner speed is higher.
They can't turn without descending at airspeeds below around 200kph, not at their maximum turn rate at least.

Ahh sorry - I couldn't see how lift was factored in, but I'm conditioned to think of velocity as a 2D vector, but obviously here it is 3D. So includes lift.

The I-153 has a great roll rate, so the pilot will just roll it on its back and then follow you down. That tactic will get you some breathing space though, so its worth trying if you need to escape from an I-153 on your tail.

It has twin MGs.

I thought the I-153 had cannons?

Anyway I don't feel cheap when I use the I-153 in sim mode because I know how easy it is to combat against them. I don't play arcade so I can't comment there.

Yep, 2 x 20mm ShVAKs.

Yeah it would be racking them up like Pele. Jack Russel maps quite well to the 153 :-)

Interesting the comments on the cannon. I mentioned this earlier and it seemed to me like a bug at times. The cannon hit the sweet spot once you get in the groove with that plane. It seems to take out the engine with a short burst first time.

Now MW2 has leeched most players I dont see many people use this plane these days

true
 

many of the former "Ace" i153 pilots from arcade have dissappeared or even started using different planes, perhaps this forum has had some sort of effect.

the i153 isnt cheap i dont think
anyway the whole argument on why its so agile ITS NOT JUST SPEED take the hurri and the spit ix the spit ix out turns the hurri and the hurri is slower
i rest my case (forever i mean i said last time i wasnt coming back to this)

also it does have cannons but the most firepower award i think goes to the bf109 g6 or the spit xvi or the spit ix because of its acuracy

BNZ tactics aren't all that bad, it doesn't take very long to disengage and gain some altitude before re-engaging.I'm not so sure about you guys but I get a kick from doing this- I can spend 20-ish minutes stalking a single enemy and not get bored.I find entering a turning battle is very boring and often deadly(for me),I usually leave the fight with more holes than swiss cheese.

That's all well and good if you don't want to win the match. But guys just engaging in turning battles will get more kills per minute than you.

OK I'm beginning to understand why Shadowcorp advised me to change planes in TB. I didn't realise it was cheap.

RATMAN was giving me a lot of mic abuse when I downed him a couple of times using the I-153.

Ok what would you guys recommend for TB and Dogfight noob? Care to share?

:)

If you want to change planes, the Spitfire IX (or XVI), the La7, and the Yak-3 are all excellent dogfighters that can be flown successfully by players with any level of experience, so take your pick.

Helps with the Spitfires and Yak-3 if you turn down the elevator sensitivity a bit for Realistic or Sim, but you can't really go wrong with any of these aircraft.

f1rebrand this is all conjecture, and at the risk of sounding like a hipocrit fly whatever you damn well please.
Yes in arcade it can easily be said the 153 is cheap mainly by those who don't fly them (myself for one). To suit the style of flight your used to i would suggest an i16 or a hurricane mkII.
But it is ultimatly your choice. An i153 will cause you to be the focus of any experienced teams tactics, that would not be a game you would enjoy and your death would far out number your kills

Dont worry about RATMAN.. He shouts at everyone..:-x It's part of his charm.

And please fly what you like... I noticed last night that you switched to 153 after everyone else had gone green.. That won't win you any friends. And was the main reason I spent the whole game trying to kill you.. (b4 you quit that is)

I used to fly the Type 24 a lot and got abuse for it, I now fly spitfires mainly, not because of the abuse but because the type 24 can be taken out quickly by anyone who knows what they are doing and was not up to the job...

Thanks guys.

Shadowcorp, Top of TB leaderboard eh?

I've noticed that you become the focus of (experienced) attention when flying the I-153. I find the the I-16 very twitchy when hit. The Hurricane is slow but yeah they're the only other planes I can fly.

I'll take a look at the Spits etc.

Understood.

i can testify to what winny says, he's much harder to shoot down in his spit than in the type 24, he's a better shot with it also

According to German range tests, they can penetrate 27mm. of armour plate @ 100 metres, (about 50mm. of steel) with APHE shells and 63mm. at 100 metres with later HVAP solid shot.

The ShVak cannon fire too fast in the game. In real life, all cannon fire somewhat slower than machine guns, the larger the calibre the slower the rate of fire.

The ShVak was also the sole armament of the T-60 light tank, which has a 1 round per second fire rate, if one watches WW2 newsreal footage.

Some mono-planes could turn inside 1930's bi-planes..... the Brewster B-139 Buffalo could turn inside the US Navy's Boeing F1 and F2 bi-plane fighters it replaced. The RAF found that the B-339 version could out turn the Gloster Gladiator and pilots commented that it handled more like a bi-plane than a mono-plane.

The Finnish B-239 could out turn the I-16 and match the I-153 in turns.

It seems that radial engined fighters have better maneuevrability than inline engine arrangements. Also that fighters with a short fuselage with wide wing ratio handle extremely well, but have too much drag to attain high speeds, hence as fighter speeds rose, aircraft became longer with shorter wings and maneuverability decreased in relation to earlier and slower predecessors.

Note how the Spitfire IX handles better than the XVI version.

Short and stubby with wide wings (I-16, Buffalo, Wildcat, Ki-27, A5M, Raiden) = highly maneuverable but slow.

Long and sleek with long wings (Hurricane, Spitfire, Zero, Oscar, Hellcat, P-51-D, Fw-190) = good maneuverablity, good speed.

Long with average wings (Bf-109, Yak, La) = aceptable maneuverability, good speed.

Long with average wings (P-39, P-40, P-66, G-50, LaGG, P-51-B) = mediocre maneuverabilty, good speed.

Long and sleek with short wings (Mig-3, P-43, ) = not so maneuverable, good speed.

.... And then their are the way too heavy types.

(P-47, Fulmar, etc.) = flies like a piano, brick, etc.

The I-173 is only "Cheap" in acrade mode, which does not bother me since I never play that.

I will get flamed for saying this, but I think the LA-7 is the cheapest plane in the other modes. I am not trying to rip the people that fly them, I actually like when people fly them because the challenge makes me a better pilot.

A high speed pass with a quick burst of my 30mm and the 153 is meat.

Perhaps by trying realistic or sim, you would be far less annoyed by the 153.

You have a point there about the La-7. It has a bit of a rep as a noob plane in Il2 1946 as well, simply because it is so good at low altitude dogfighting and the majority of fights take place in these conditions.

It rather hard to fight against, especially with my usual plane in Il2 1946 which is a late model Bf109G or K, because while these can match the La7 in speed they cannot turn with it, which means I have a very hard time in a sustained fight. That means I have to rely on using BnZ tactics only, and on making ambush kills and then getting out of the area fast.

The LA7 falls apart under gunfire very easily in arcade mode. Strange its potent in th other modes

The G has more firepower but is a less stable shooting platform. The K has less firepower but is more stable......also cant turn with the G-6. I wish the F-4 could punch out of a wet paper bag, I LOVE how it flies. Any of them have a hard time dealing with the LA-7.

I haven't tried the La-7, but I flew the La-5 in 1946 and the control column obscures your view of the slip ball when in the neutral poition - how am I intended to trim my rudder? Any ideas? Not being able to see the variometer on the MiG-9 is a pain for landing, too, although as it's the gunsight housing in the way I'm sure there's not much to be done about that. Bring on SoW and 6DoF, I guess.

Well, there is a mod that gives you 6DoF in Il2 1946, but that isn't part of the official game yet. The problem is that all the older cockpits in the sim were designed to use only a fixed viewpoint, which means if you are moving around in the cockpit you will see parts of the cockpit haven't been modeled.

Obviously, doing an upgrade for all these cockpits would be a massive task, so its unlikely this will ever be officially added to Il2.

Yeah, I wasn't really expecting much in the way of 6DoF from IL-2, just wondered what those with more time logged in 1946 than me used as a work-around method of checking co-ordination really. Most of my time is currently spent flying the YP-80 and Me262 which don't have these issues, but I would like to fly the La's at some point, and the MiG-9 in particular - I have no way of guesstimating my sink rate to within 500ft/second, though. =/

yes you will get slated
take it up high its crap then
i prefur the spit though
oh and it has crap accuracy try firing on some1 its hard to get a hit